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Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner

This topic contains 257 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Hank_Moody 4 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #176130

    EGL Admin
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    In case you haven’t heard Bruce Jenner is now going to be known as Caitlyn Jenner. There’s a photo on the cover of a magazine with he/she dressed as a woman. I hope he/she finds happiness. I don’t really care to read about it or see it though.

  • #282843

    ActionEmotion
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    Celebrating mental illness and demanding that we accept it as normal healthy behavior is awful thing.

  • #282838

    SteveB6509
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    So, now he/she is mentally ill? Sorry but the fact some people think that is an awful thing in my book.

  • #282901

    plasmadrive
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    Why do we care? If this is what people live to see, we need some chlorine in the gene pool.

  • #282648

    EGL Admin
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    Whatever makes him/her happy. Not sure why it’s necessary to publicize it. I understand that maybe it may help some people but that family is all about self promotion and themselves. Posing on the cover in a dress is all about that.

  • #282682

    adiffer
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    I’m not convinced it is mental illness.

    Lots of us have been taught that it must be, but I’ve looked for the science behind that teaching and never found it.

  • #282842

    Ila
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    Did anyone consider that “Caitlyn” may be using his fame to help others in the same situation to make their lives easier with no shame attached. Bruce Jenner has in my opinion been an honest and caring person who has struggled with this for most of his life. And now she is trying to get the word out to those that if she can do it, they can too. I know this is a hotbed topic but it is an issue whether we agree with it or not. This is not hurting us so let her do her thing with no negativity. It’s her life to do with as she pleases and if it helps keep one Transgender child from committing suicide then that to me is a good thing.

  • #282683

    adiffer
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    I’ve got a neice/nephew ‘in-law’ going through this.
    Depression is a significant factor.

    Life ain’t as simple as we’d like to believe. 8/

  • #282649

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    @ila 113074 wrote:

    Did anyone consider that “Caitlyn” may be using his fame to help others in the same situation to make their lives easier with no shame attached. Bruce Jenner has in my opinion been an honest and caring person who has struggled with this for most of his life. And now she is trying to get the word out to those that if she can do it, they can too. I know this is a hotbed topic but it is an issue whether we agree with it or not. This is not hurting us so let her do her thing with no negativity. It’s her life to do with as she pleases and if it helps keep one Transgender child from committing suicide then that to me is a good thing.

    Possibly but in light of what the family has been doing, I am skeptical. Plus why pose in a dress like that for a cover shot?Could have just as easily sat down with a reporter and gave their story. It’s not our business but when you publicize it like this then you invite criticism and praise. Hopefully he will be honest with whoever he meets about all this.

  • #282783

    newmom
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    The belief that some people have that transgendered people are mentally ill disgusts me.

    I agree that the family is one that lives purely off self promotion, but this doesn’t fall into that category, IMO. There are plenty of other, far easier and far more accepted ways to bring attention to themselves than this. I think Jenner had no choice but to go public because he was already being followed around by cameras anyway. If he can help people, more power to him.

    We have friends with a 5 year old biologically born male who has never, ever wanted anything to do with being a boy, being called a boy, dressing like a boy, looking like a boy, etc. On his own, he asked to be called a girl’s name. If you saw him clothed, you would believe him to be a girl. He has grown his hair long, wears bows, and dresses or skirts only. He already talks about the day he can get rid of his penis and calls himself a girl. They have taken him to doctors and pediatric specialists all over the state, partly for their child, partly so they know how to help their child, and partly because of the scorn they have gotten from relatives who think they are making the child this way. No one wants to be ostracized by society, told they are crazy, or called horrible names. No parents wants that for their child either. The last 2 years have been especially difficult for them all, and I am afraid for them for what they will face in their future.

  • #282784

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 113078 wrote:

    Possibly but in light of what the family has been doing, I am skeptical. Plus why pose in a dress like that for a cover shot?Could have just as easily sat down with a reporter and gave their story. It’s not our business but when you publicize it like this then you invite criticism and praise. Hopefully he will be honest with whoever he meets about all this.

    He already sat down and was interviewed. He was dressed as a male for that and said he wasn’t ready to go public as a woman at that time.

  • #282735

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113053 wrote:

    Celebrating mental illness and demanding that we accept it as normal healthy behavior is awful thing.

    The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality as a mental illness in 1974. Congratulations on only being 40 years behind the time, and a pillar of compassion besides.

  • #282822

    tomwaltman
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    I believe, if you care enough to look, you will find that a reality show is either in the works, or about to be released. That being said, if he/she wants to be she/he, what do I care? Hope he finds happiness. Or she. Whichever is looking for it.

  • #282684

    adiffer
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    I suspect this serves more than one purpose.
    I’m okay with that.

    The free advertising they are getting for the new show is good strategy.
    I’m okay with that too, but not interested. No doubt my mother in law will watch, though. Sigh. 8)

  • #282650

    EGL Admin
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    I agree that the family is one that lives purely off self promotion, but this doesn’t fall into that category, IMO. There are plenty of other, far easier and far more accepted ways to bring attention to themselves than this. I think Jenner had no choice but to go public because he was already being followed around by cameras anyway. If he can help people, more power to him.

    I don’t think he’s changing genders for publicity. I think he is doing it in this public manner because he wants this publicity. When you do that though, you give up your privacy and you invite comments from others. If there is going to be a series then that tells you what you need to know and then it’s not being done out of some altruistic behavior.

  • #282785

    newmom
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    I don’t think he wants the publicity for publicity sake, but I think he knows it would be made a huge deal about, so he’s doing it on his terms. Or rather, her terms. If the media is going to be covering it, writing about it, and taking pictures anyway, why not put out the information in a time and manner that she is comfortable with and in control of? I think she has come to terms with it and knows the comments and questions people are going to have, so she might as well deal with it head on.

  • #282786

    newmom
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    And I have no idea about any of their shows. I did watch his interview with Diane Sawyer a couple of months ago. That’s all I know, and all I care to know about that family.

  • #282651

    EGL Admin
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    I don’t watch their shows, but of course know of them. This family loves the publicity. It’s what they are about. If he really wanted it private, he would make a statement, do an interview and then disappear. Posing in a dress, on magazine cover, I don’t think he wants it to go away.

  • #282736

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 113103 wrote:

    I don’t watch their shows, but of course know of them. This family loves the publicity. It’s what they are about. If he really wanted it private, he would make a statement, do an interview and then disappear. Posing in a dress, on magazine cover, I don’t think he wants it to go away.

    Did he say he wanted it to go away? I’m sure he likes the attention. I don’t blame people who can make millions for doing nothing. I blame the mouth breathers who watch their shows who push the ad rates for their show so they can continue to peddle nonsense.

  • #282652

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    True. Some people on social media are saying everyone should leave him alone. I’m on Twitter and I got a notification saying something like “these people are now following Caitlyn Jenner.” It was mainly sports related people. I thought okay I’ll check it out and see who it was. I didn’t know it was Bruce Jenner. I thought it was a current athlete. One of the sports reporters I follow on FB posted about it too and said how great it was.

  • #282905

    Hank_Moody
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    “There are no second acts in American lives.” —
    F. Scott Fitzgerald

    “Call me Caitlyn” — Caitlyn Jenner

  • #282823

    tomwaltman
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    Doesn’t really matter why to me. If He/she/she/he (not sure which is right at this point) can make money off of a bunch of, as DL calls them, mouth-breathers, then more power to him/her. Whatever makes people happy…

  • #282653

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    @tomwaltman 113111 wrote:

    Doesn’t really matter why to me. If He/she/she/he (not sure which is right at this point) can make money off of a bunch of, as DL calls them, mouth-breathers, then more power to him/her. Whatever makes people happy…

    That is the American way!

  • #282654

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    @newmom 113080 wrote:

    The belief that some people have that transgendered people are mentally ill disgusts me.

    I agree that the family is one that lives purely off self promotion, but this doesn’t fall into that category, IMO. There are plenty of other, far easier and far more accepted ways to bring attention to themselves than this. I think Jenner had no choice but to go public because he was already being followed around by cameras anyway. If he can help people, more power to him.

    We have friends with a 5 year old biologically born male who has never, ever wanted anything to do with being a boy, being called a boy, dressing like a boy, looking like a boy, etc. On his own, he asked to be called a girl’s name. If you saw him clothed, you would believe him to be a girl. He has grown his hair long, wears bows, and dresses or skirts only. He already talks about the day he can get rid of his penis and calls himself a girl. They have taken him to doctors and pediatric specialists all over the state, partly for their child, partly so they know how to help their child, and partly because of the scorn they have gotten from relatives who think they are making the child this way. No one wants to be ostracized by society, told they are crazy, or called horrible names. No parents wants that for their child either. The last 2 years have been especially difficult for them all, and I am afraid for them for what they will face in their future.

    That’s interesting that a 5 year old would make that choice and say he hates his penis and can’t wait until he can vet rid of it. Interestimg a 5 year old comes up with that idea on their own. Trying to remember when our boys were that age and I don’t recall any discussions about penises. Curious where he would get the idea has could get rid of it. What would make a 5 year old think he could get rid of it?

  • #282824

    tomwaltman
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    Don’t know the parents, don’t know the child. No way to form any opinion beyond, “Gee, that is sure interesting.” My four boys all loved/love their penises, and would miss them if they were gone. If my soon-to-be 9 year old started wanting his removed, I don’t know what I would say to him. Probably something like, “Okay, I will get the chain saw…”

  • #282839

    SteveB6509
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    @doclaguna 113083 wrote:

    The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality as a mental illness in 1974. Congratulations on only being 40 years behind the time, and a pillar of compassion besides.

    Thank you!

  • #282787

    newmom
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    I don’t know-they said he’s claimed for years he doesn’t like it and doesn’t want it. His father is one of my husband’s best friends-he was best man at our wedding-and he has had a difficult time with the situation compared to his wife, but has said they’ve never said or done anything to the child to make the kid think changing genders or removing his penis was ever an option. They tried to get the child to wear pants, tennis shoes, etc, and the child won’t have anything to do with it. S/He wants girls sandals, Mary Jane shoes, princess dresses, play make-up, pierced ears, was Dorothy (from The Wizard of Oz) for Halloween one year, Belle another. The child believes she is a girl. The mom’s parents want nothing to do with them now because they disapprove, even though they have seen first hand the process and steps the child and parents have been through, the medical help they have sought out for help. It’s really very sad, and to think it’s only going to get worse for the child and the family.

  • #282685

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113123 wrote:

    That’s interesting that a 5 year old would make that choice and say he hates his penis and can’t wait until he can vet rid of it. Interestimg a 5 year old comes up with that idea on their own. Trying to remember when our boys were that age and I don’t recall any discussions about penises. Curious where he would get the idea has could get rid of it. What would make a 5 year old think he could get rid of it?

    It’s not as uncommon as many think. There are a number of kids who know something is wrong at that early age.

  • #282835

    Scarlet
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    Doc it isn’t hard to believe. We know someone similar but the roles are reversed. He is now in elementary school, born female but is recognized as a boy and has changed his name. He started school as a female and changed two years later. Lots of family therapy and individual therapy. Nothing that can’t be reversed if he changes his mind. Finding it’s easier to do the transition at a younger age.

  • #282737

    doclaguna
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    My guess is there is a continuum of sexuality where there is extremely straight on one end, and extremely gay on the other. There’s probably also a similar spectrum where there is very gender dysphoric on one end, and very gender I don’t know what term we would use “syntonic” on the other end.

    To call someone mentally ill for falling on a part of the spectrum you are not comfortable with is small minded and rude. Personally I don’t give a crap whether someone is identifying with the other gender, or attracted to the same gender. Are they a productive member of society? Do they treat other people well? That’s the test of whether they are someone I would want to associate with.

  • #282738

    doclaguna
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    @adiffer 113127 wrote:

    It’s not as uncommon as many think. There are a number of kids who know something is wrong at that early age.

    Well, people bury those feelings pretty early when they have people in society calling them “mentally ill” for expressing them.

  • #282831

    violarose
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    I do not mind anymore what people do. Just dont hurt kids.

  • #282686

    adiffer
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    @doclaguna 113132 wrote:

    Well, people bury those feelings pretty early when they have people in society calling them “mentally ill” for expressing them.

    Yah, but I’ll admit I’m not inclined to poke at the people who see this as a mental illness.
    They lost the public battle, but remain unconvinced for what I suspect are biological reasons.

    You are familiar with the Y-chromosome bottleneck that started 8K years ago and ended about 4K years ago? The number of breeding males was way, way lower than the number of breeding females pretty much everywhere in the world. Something dramatic happened to end that and the best candidates are cultural reasons. I suspect our attitudes regarding homophobia and gender identity are echoes of the solution that got adopted. Fighting echoes won’t do us any good, but we don’t have to. All we have to do is grind them down.

  • #282655

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    @doclaguna 113132 wrote:

    Well, people bury those feelings pretty early when they have people in society calling them “mentally ill” for expressing them.

    Not sure a 5 year old has experienced that though, although I guess he would be teased about it possibly.

  • #282687

    adiffer
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    There is good data on these kids that says they DO know. Gender identity is pushed from day one.

    It’s the parents who want to believe they don’t.
    It’s a form of denialism I’m all too familiar with.

  • #282788

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 113137 wrote:

    Not sure a 5 year old has experienced that though, although I guess he would be teased about it possibly.

    I would guess that, in the case with this kid who grandparents want nothing to do with him anymore, he heard or was told some things from those grandparents. Maybe things like “normal boys” dress a certain way or “real boys” behave a different way. Things like that can cause a problem for a kid.

  • #282656

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    @newmom 113141 wrote:

    I would guess that, in the case with this kid who grandparents want nothing to do with him anymore, he heard or was told some things from those grandparents. Maybe things like “normal boys” dress a certain way or “real boys” behave a different way. Things like that can cause a problem for a kid.

    Gotcha, probably so.

    I think you’re right in that it will only get worse as he gets older. They are going to need a lot of counseling and help.

  • #282789

    newmom
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    It will be really interesting to see if s/he continues to believe this throughout his/her life or at some point identifies as a boy.

  • #282836

    Scarlet
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    Here is an interesting article and video on a young family with a transgender child http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/18/living/feat-transgender-child-raising-ryland/

  • #282657

    EGL Admin
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    I think a lot of parents would try to force their kid to wear the gender appropriate clothing. I think that would be a natural first response.

    This is off topic as far as gender identity stuff. We know someone that I’ve always felt was gay. Others do too, so it isn’t just me. They had a lot of friends that were gay. Not so much now anymore I don’t think. In their mid 20’s and never has had a relationship or expressed interest in people of either sex. Not having a relationship isn’t that odd, but not even acting interested in having one or dating is kind of odd I think. I have never heard this person say they thought someone was attractive. Good looking person. The topic came up the other day and someone said this person is just really picky. I was thinking have you thought maybe they might be gay and just haven’t accepted that yet? I didn’t say that. I just don’t recall there ever being a comment about someone that would indicate they thought anyone was attractive. Generally you have an idea. We knew my niece was gay when she was in middle school so when she finally told the family, we already knew and it was no big deal. her mom was the biggest issue because she wouldn’t accept it at first and made life hell. Telling her she would go to hell.

  • #282658

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    @scarlet 113147 wrote:

    Here is an interesting article and video on a young family with a transgender child http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/18/living/feat-transgender-child-raising-ryland/

    That’s really interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

  • #282790

    newmom
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    I agree but I think how you say it- both the tone and the words- would mean a lot.

  • #282777

    joy
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    @doclaguna 113130 wrote:

    To call someone mentally ill for falling on a part of the spectrum you are not comfortable with is small minded and rude. Personally I don’t give a crap whether someone is identifying with the other gender, or attracted to the same gender. Are they a productive member of society? Do they treat other people well? That’s the test of whether they are someone I would want to associate with.

    Amen.

  • #282837

    kindrlindr
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    I think Caitlyn is beautiful and if it makes her happy for the rest of her life, then kudos to her.

    Bruce lived quite a public life, why wouldn’t this be followed by the media? I just hope it doesn’t damage those who are transgender or trying to figure things out for themselves. The Jenner/Kardashians have made their lives a bit embarrassing…like a circus, and I only hope this doesn’t make transgenders look like a joke.

  • #282659

    EGL Admin
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    @kindrlindr 113167 wrote:

    I think Caitlyn is beautiful and if it makes her happy for the rest of her life, then kudos to her.

    Bruce lived quite a public life, why wouldn’t this be followed by the media? I just hope it doesn’t damage those who are transgender or trying to figure things out for themselves. The Jenner/Kardashians have made their lives a bit embarrassing…like a circus, and I only hope this doesn’t make transgenders look like a joke.

    Beautiful?

    I agree on the circus part. It brings more attention to the subject which could be good or it could backfire.

    The precedent for this was set many years ago by the tennis player who went from being a guy to a woman and there was lots of controversy when she tried to play women’s tennis.

    http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/tennis-star-renee-richards-reflects-trans-life-article-1.2240292

  • #282840

    SteveB6509
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    There is likely to be a reality show out of this. Hopefully many of the kids out there who don’t fit into the traditional molds of what parents want their kids to be will feel like they’re not alone (or as alone as they might feel).

  • #282791

    newmom
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    There is already a reality show produced by Ryan Seacrest about another family with a parent transitioning genders.

    http://www.ryanseacrest.com/2015/03/24/watch-first-look-at-abc-familys-unscripted-transgender-series-becoming-us/

  • #282844

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113083 wrote:

    The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality as a mental illness in 1974. Congratulations on only being 40 years behind the time, and a pillar of compassion besides.

    Homosexuality? Jenner says he isn’t homosexual. So much for your snide little comment.

  • #282845

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113130 wrote:

    My guess is there is a continuum of sexuality where there is extremely straight on one end, and extremely gay on the other. There’s probably also a similar spectrum where there is very gender dysphoric on one end, and very gender I don’t know what term we would use “syntonic” on the other end.

    To call someone mentally ill for falling on a part of the spectrum you are not comfortable with is small minded and rude. Personally I don’t give a crap whether someone is identifying with the other gender, or attracted to the same gender. Are they a productive member of society? Do they treat other people well? That’s the test of whether they are someone I would want to associate with.

    HAHA did you just call me rude? Hilarious.

  • #282846

    ActionEmotion
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    Your compassion comment baffles me as well doc because recognizing mental illness is a compassionate thing. Helping people out of their dysfunction is being compassionate. Calling mental illness normal, beautiful, or anything else positive is not compassionate, it’s enabling. I can’t wait to hear you defend pedophilia when the social activists attempt to normalize that illness. Its coming, and don’t think it isn’t. The support is already building to accept pedophilia as a normal function of human behavior and because it is normal it should not be stigmatized.
    You know what else is normal? Murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating, all of these things are normal to the human being, should we defend these as well or are we as a society supposed to rise above those things which come natural to man and strive for a healthier and more avantageous life than that of animals left to their own unenlightened desires?

  • #282739

    doclaguna
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    Let’s look at this your from a completely rational standpoint.
    Pedophilia will never be seen as acceptable, nor bestiality, as neither children or animals can give sexual consent. Everytime I see someone like you try to equate a consensual relationship between adults to this, it’s pathetic and wrong.
    Murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating all might be “normal” but they all leave a victim. They also have nothing to do with your claim of “mental illness.” These are crimes. Identifying with the other gender is not a crime, nor does it leave a victim. Apples and oranges.
    Mental illness is normal, even though it’s an unfortunate disease process that we try to help people through. We don’t stigmatize the mentally ill.

    BTW, you are such a cliche: the addict who traded booze or drugs or whatever you clung to to bury your own emotions for religious zealotry. It’s probably healthier for you, but wildly malignant for society. I have more concerns about people like you with your delusional belief system of a unseen God than I do with someone who identifies as the other gender.

  • #282847

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113192 wrote:

    Let’s look at this your from a completely rational standpoint.
    Pedophilia will never be seen as acceptable, nor bestiality, as neither children or animals can give sexual consent. Everytime I see someone like you try to equate a consensual relationship between adults to this, it’s pathetic and wrong.
    Murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating all might be “normal” but they all leave a victim. They also have nothing to do with your claim of “mental illness.” These are crimes. Identifying with the other gender is not a crime, nor does it leave a victim. Apples and oranges.
    Mental illness is normal, even though it’s an unfortunate disease process that we try to help people through. We don’t stigmatize the mentally ill.

    BTW, you are such a cliche: the addict who traded booze or drugs or whatever you clung to to bury your own emotions for religious zealotry. It’s probably healthier for you, but wildly malignant for society. I have more concerns about people like you with your delusional belief system of a unseen God than I do with someone who identifies as the other gender.

    Your lack of depth doesn’t surprise me. Cliche is a convenient word for you because you have no understanding so you are forced to fit what you do not understand into a nice little envelope to label and store away. My emotions aren’t buried, they are in my control. That’s called being an adult.

    You call me delusional because I recognize God but you say things that prove to me that you have no clue as to what you even believe. “We weren’t meant to be happy all the time” what kind of nonsense is that from a man who refuses to acknowledge his creator? Society is a mess because of people like you who deny God. You speak out of both sided of your mouth and the two never reconcile. You claim compassion while berating those who disagree with your ridiculous emotional decision making with regard to society and what you feel rather than what you think.

    Remember your words in 10 years when pedophilia has become a cause for the left to embrace as normal as they demean those of us in society as being haters and neanderthals and fools for putting old fashioned boundaries on humans because of some belief in a god who doesn’t exist. Then you can deny all you want the short sighted position that you now embrace and say that I remember it differently.

  • #282740

    doclaguna
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    So if I said I believed in mermen and unicorns, that would be a delusion, which is a belief system that is held despite strong evidence of the contrary.
    But you believing in “God” is not delusional? There is about as much evidence in “God” as there is in unicorns, which is basically, nothing.
    Why not believe in Zeus? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
    So who is mentally ill now? The person like me who doesn’t rely on a delusional belief system to get through the day? Or you?
    Your whole judgement that this is “mental illness” is based on your little fantasy belief system. You are just a less violent version of the Muslims who stone people for adultery in my opinion. Stop pushing your hate out in the world.

  • #282792

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113194 wrote:

    Your lack of depth doesn’t surprise me. Cliche is a convenient word for you because you have no understanding so you are forced to fit what you do not understand into a nice little envelope to label and store away. My emotions aren’t buried, they are in my control. That’s called being an adult.

    You call me delusional because I recognize God but you say things that prove to me that you have no clue as to what you even believe. “We weren’t meant to be happy all the time” what kind of nonsense is that from a man who refuses to acknowledge his creator? Society is a mess because of people like you who deny God. You speak out of both sided of your mouth and the two never reconcile. You claim compassion while berating those who disagree with your ridiculous emotional decision making with regard to society and what you feel rather than what you think.

    Remember your words in 10 years when pedophilia has become a cause for the left to embrace as normal as they demean those of us in society as being haters and neanderthals and fools for putting old fashioned boundaries on humans because of some belief in a god who doesn’t exist. Then you can deny all you want the short sighted position that you now embrace and say that I remember it differently.

    Nothing about pediphilia will ever be considered normal or acceptable by anyone except other pedophiles, and your hatred for the left clouds your thinking and leads you to believe even e most ludicrous things.
    Do you believe the Duggar family handled their child molesting son appropriately?

  • #282848

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113199 wrote:

    So if I said I believed in mermen and unicorns, that would be a delusion, which is a belief system that is held despite strong evidence of the contrary.
    But you believing in “God” is not delusional? There is about as much evidence in “God” as there is in unicorns, which is basically, nothing.
    Why not believe in Zeus? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
    So who is mentally ill now? The person like me who doesn’t rely on a delusional belief system to get through the day? Or you?
    Your whole judgement that this is “mental illness” is based on your little fantasy belief system. You are just a less violent version of the Muslims who stone people for adultery in my opinion. Stop pushing your hate out in the world.

    Hate? What hate? That’s just a label you slap on people you aren’t equipped to have a conversation with. You’ll understand one day.

  • #282741

    doclaguna
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    @newmom 113202 wrote:

    Nothing about pediphilia will ever be considered normal or acceptable by anyone except other pedophiles, and your hatred for the left clouds your thinking and leads you to believe even e most ludicrous things.
    Do you believe the Duggar family handled their child molesting son appropriately?

    Stop picking on him, he’s got enough of a martyr complex.

  • #282742

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113203 wrote:

    Hate? What hate? That’s just a label you slap on people you aren’t equipped to have a conversation with. You’ll understand one day.

    Standing in the way of someone trying to eek out some happiness for themselves, when it’s none of your ****ing business, and harms NO ONE, just because it is not in line with your delusional system, is the absolute definition of hate.
    Let’s face it, if you were born in another part of the world, you would be stoning or beheading people.

  • #282849

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113202 wrote:

    Nothing about pediphilia will ever be considered normal or acceptable by anyone except other pedophiles, and your hatred for the left clouds your thinking and leads you to believe even e most ludicrous things.
    Do you believe the Duggar family handled their child molesting son appropriately?

    OK, I hope you are right about pedophilia. But you aren’t’. Again, another with the hate thing, lol. I have no hatred for anyone. Ideas are either good bad or inconsequential and the left have a lot of bad ideas which are proven to be destructive to society time and time again. Emotion based thinking prevents people from using logic and critical thought to recognize the results of these decisions when it might hurt someones feelings. That’s just delusional.

    I don’t know how the Dugger’s handled their son’s problem because i don’t watch other people live their lives for mindless entertainment nor do I care how they handled it. If it were my son however, I would make sure that there was counselling for everyone involved and if someone wanted to press charges it would be appropriate.

  • #282743

    doclaguna
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    OK so without using your belief system involving fantasy Santa Clauses in the sky, tell me why letting someone identify as the other gender is a “bad idea.”

  • #282850

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113205 wrote:

    Standing in the way of someone trying to eek out some happiness for themselves, when it’s none of your ****ing business, and harms NO ONE, just because it is not in line with your delusional system, is the absolute definition of hate.
    Let’s face it, if you were born in another part of the world, you would be stoning or beheading people.

    I’m not standing in the way of anyone. What have I proposed which would prevent Jenner or anyone else from becoming transgender and living their lives how they wish? Are you actually saying that because I’m not supporting the irrational behavior displayed by Jenner that I am in some way encumbering his life or preventing him from living it as he chooses? You are so ignorant to what I actually believe that you are forced to create evil ideas to discredit me simply because I see things differently than you do. It is obvious that you aren’t close to understanding what I believe, what I think or how I would react in any situation but you keep on trying to make me out to be some sort of zealot hellbent on forcing others to comply with my faith if that’s what helps make you feel superior.

  • #282744

    doclaguna
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    When you paint this as “mental illness” you damn straight are creating roadblocks for him living his life, because of the society people like you create for people like him. Don’t act innocent. You don’t force people to comply with a rock or a sword, just with your attitude.

    What is “irrational” about what he is doing, by the way?

  • #282851

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113207 wrote:

    OK so without using your belief system involving fantasy Santa Clauses in the sky, tell me why letting someone identify as the other gender is a “bad idea.”

    Again, letting? Who is proposing that we disallow Jenner from being who he chooses to be. I don’t support it, I think it will end horribly, I hope he doesn’t kill himself or end up being miserable for the rest of his life but I don’t wish to stop him from anything he wants to do. His kids will need therapy but the farce which is the American Psychiatric Association will only tell them that they need to accept what dad has done as being a good thing. Insanity is becoming quite trendy.

  • #282745

    doclaguna
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    What is irrational about his behavior?

  • #282852

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113212 wrote:

    When you paint this as “mental illness” you damn straight are creating roadblocks for him living his life, because of the society people like you create for people like him. Don’t act innocent. You don’t force people to comply with a rock or a sword, just with your attitude.

    What is “irrational” about what he is doing, by the way?

    Garbage! You think I’m a lunatic and you aren’t impeding my life in any way shape or form. You cannot create a roadblock in my life by virtue of your opinion of me. “People like me” You don’t have a clue as to who I am or what I believe, you’re too busy trying to squash it like a bug because it upsets your soft little emotional veneer. Eek, a Christian!

    Did you just ask me what’s irrational about living your life as a male, marrying, having children and then changing your identity of yourself because you feel like a woman? Emotion based decision making is always a bad idea. The feelings of humans are often deceiving and are always responsible for the worst decisions that we make. Logic, critical thought and physical evidence (he is a male) is where this discussion should begin. But you are one of those EBT’s who demands that because you feel a certain way then that feeling is factual. That is irrational.

  • #282746

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113218 wrote:

    Garbage! You think I’m a lunatic and you aren’t impeding my life in any way shape or form. You cannot create a roadblock in my life by virtue of your opinion of me. “People like me” You don’t have a clue as to who I am or what I believe, you’re too busy trying to squash it like a bug because it upsets your soft little emotional veneer. Eek, a Christian!

    Did you just ask me what’s irrational about living your life as a male, marrying, having children and then changing your identity of yourself because you feel like a woman? Emotion based decision making is always a bad idea. The feelings of humans are often deceiving and are always responsible for the worst decisions that we make. Logic, critical thought and physical evidence (he is a male) is where this discussion should begin. But you are one of those EBT’s who demands that because you feel a certain way then that feeling is factual. That is irrational.

    This is an amusing rant. There is nothing rational about your belief system, religion is nothing but emotion based decision making. Personally you can go worship to a rock in the corner, as long as you do it quietly, I don’t care. It’s when you push your ridiculous judgements into the world that I feel the need to speak out. Then you play the victim card and run away. We know your MO.

  • #282688

    adiffer
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    @newmom 113202 wrote:

    Nothing about pediphilia will ever be considered normal or acceptable by anyone except other pedophiles, and your hatred for the left clouds your thinking and leads you to believe even e most ludicrous things.

    Much as I dislike this subject, I think you might be proven wrong some day.
    We are close relatives to Bonobos. We should never forget that.

  • #282747

    doclaguna
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    @adiffer 113222 wrote:

    Much as I dislike this subject, I think you might be proven wrong some day.
    We are close relatives to Bonobos. We should never forget that.

    We might discover some genetic basis for an attraction as such HOWEVER this has nothing to do with acting on this basis, because now we enter the legal realm of consent.

  • #282689

    adiffer
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    …which is a lovely cultural fiction when it comes to biological motivations. Turing faced such a fiction too.

    I’m not saying we are wrong in our revulsion for this.
    I’m pointing out that in a biological sense, we are a work in progress.
    Recognition of that should be considered in our draconian punishment attitudes for this particular crime.

  • #282853

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113219 wrote:

    This is an amusing rant. There is nothing rational about your belief system, religion is nothing but emotion based decision making. Personally you can go worship to a rock in the corner, as long as you do it quietly, I don’t care. It’s when you push your ridiculous judgements into the world that I feel the need to speak out. Then you play the victim card and run away. We know your MO.

    Brilliant example of you refusing to face the argument and accept the facts. I have quite effectively responded to all of your emotional accusations and insipid innuendos with regard to what I think and your only response to is attempt to insult my faith in God. You feel the need to speak out, how noble of you, yet your arguments don’t rise to the level of a 6 year old. Victim card? Nope, I’m here, not a victim and quite capable of handling any garbage you are capable of spewing. If you haven’t noticed, I have the high ground here.

    I’ve answered your questions, I’ve swatted down your silly accusations and have proven to hold the logical perspective in response to your hater, spaghetti monster bait which seems to slip off the hook each time you cast it out. You have nothing but anger and emotional responses. I’m not impressed.

  • #282748

    doclaguna
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    The high ground? LOL. Facts? What facts would that be? Your faith is not fact.

  • #282854

    ActionEmotion
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    Some of you are like visitors to am impressionist art gallery who stand inches away from the art and give your detailed critique as to what the painting depicts. In essence, your critique is nothing more than a short sighted opinion of a picture you never completely see. The feelings you get from this experience have no meaning, no impact on the picture as a whole. Yet it doesn’t keep you from ranting on how others who talk about the bigger picture are delusional and filled with hate. To those of us who have taken many steps back, studied the work and assessed it using critical thought, your opinions have nothing to offer us which have the power to change our minds.

  • #282793

    newmom
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    @adiffer 113222 wrote:

    Much as I dislike this subject, I think you might be proven wrong some day.
    We are close relatives to Bonobos. We should never forget that.

    However, we have a legal system in place, and the belief that sex is and should be a consensual act between two people. Just because we descended from animals doesn’t mean that we will erase millions of years of evolution and thinking and accept that an adult should have sex with children and that it’s acceptable. No on in their rights minds believes this, however he is using it as yet another reason to believe people on the left are all horrible.
    Mental illness? Come on. Joan of Arc was believed to be mentally ill-now she is a saint.

  • #282749

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113232 wrote:

    Some of you are like visitors to am impressionist art gallery who stand inches away from the art and give your detailed critique as to what the painting depicts. In essence, your critique is nothing more than a short sighted opinion of a picture you never completely see. The feelings you get from this experience have no meaning, no impact on the picture as a whole. Yet it doesn’t keep you from ranting on how others who talk about the bigger picture are delusional and filled with hate. To those of us who have taken many steps back, studied the work and assessed it using critical thought, your opinions have nothing to offer us which have the power to change our minds.

    What’s this “our minds” shit? There isn’t a single other person on this site that would touch your “enlightened” view with a 10 foot pole. I’m not out to change your mind, I’m out to break people like you into bits so you can’t do any more societal harm.

  • #282855

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113231 wrote:

    The high ground? LOL. Facts? What facts would that be? Your faith is not fact.

    We are talking about my faith now? I didn’t realize that this was the discussion that we have been debating. I thought you were having a little temper tantrum over my decision to call Bruce Jenner’s sexual identity confusion mental illness. To which I responded to your accusations of blah blah blah and all you had in response was more of the same. You have nothing to stand on intellectually with regard to my words that back your supposition that I am a hater and no better than the radical islamists. Now you want to discuss the merits of my faith which happens to be a topic that only you have been discussing in this thread. I never brought it up. You however seem to be obsessed with it.

    I didn’t invoke God, scripture, morality or any such thing. You did though. Perhaps you are so emotionally immature that you aren’t able to accept that others think differently than you feel. I don’t know, but talking to you is sure a wild ride. BTW you mentioned on another thread that we weren’t meant to be happy all the time…you still didn’t answer my question. Meant by whom?

  • #282794

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113232 wrote:

    Some of you are like visitors to am impressionist art gallery who stand inches away from the art and give your detailed critique as to what the painting depicts. In essence, your critique is nothing more than a short sighted opinion of a picture you never completely see. The feelings you get from this experience have no meaning, no impact on the picture as a whole. Yet it doesn’t keep you from ranting on how others who talk about the bigger picture are delusional and filled with hate. To those of us who have taken many steps back, studied the work and assessed it using critical thought, your opinions have nothing to offer us which have the power to change our minds.

    You realize that we can say the EXACT same thing about you, right? You who is following a dogma thousands of years old, but claims to have “taken a step back”. You, who chooses to use a book that many believe to be delusion and fiction, as fact and rules to live life by? You claim to use critical thought to assess a situation, but that critical thinking only extends as far as your religious thinking allows, and you are so close minded about things that you don’t believe could possibly happen (like someone believing they were born a different gender than their physical body) that you brand it as mental illness and liken them to criminal behaviors.
    “Your opinions have nothing to offer us…..”

    Wow-that’s some great enlightened thinking there, big man. You truly are incredibly insulting.

  • #282856

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113234 wrote:

    I’m not out to change your mind, I’m out to break people like you into bits so you can’t do any more societal harm.

    You’ll need a bigger hammer than the one you are using. You are trying to smash titanium with a nerf hammer.

  • #282750

    doclaguna
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    I’m supposed to believe your calling his “confusion” (Who is confused, he’s pretty clear how he identifies) mental illness is not based in your whacked out, judgmental religious belief system which enters EVERY discussion with you? What’s it based on then, your extensive research into the field? Your degree in psychology?

  • #282751

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113237 wrote:

    You’ll need a bigger hammer than the one you are using. You are trying to smash titanium with a nerf hammer.

    Yes, your head is made out of rock. Something to be proud of.

  • #282857

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113236 wrote:

    You realize that we can say the EXACT same thing about you, right? You who is following a dogma thousands of years old, but claims to have “taken a step back”. You, who chooses to use a book that many believe to be delusion and fiction, as fact and rules to live life by? You claim to use critical thought to assess a situation, but that critical thinking only extends as far as your religious thinking allows, and you are so close minded about things that you don’t believe could possibly happen (like someone believing they were born a different gender than their physical body) that you brand it as mental illness and liken them to criminal behaviors.
    “Your opinions have nothing to offer us…..”

    Wow-that’s some great enlightened thinking there, big man. You truly are incredibly insulting.

    More emotional claptrap. You and doclaguna are so stuck on religion yet you are the only ones bringing it up. I never did. Then you rant on as if I came in here preaching hell fire and damnation. It’s silly. It’s why you have nothing to offer. You refuse to discuss the topic by muddying it up with emotional reactions to my faith and then trying to switch the argument. Grow up.

  • #282752

    doclaguna
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    So your objection is not based on your religious beliefs, and just on the fact you are an *******, or what?

  • #282795

    newmom
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    Because calling a transgendered person “mentally ill” isn’t “muddying up” the discussion? What proof do YOU have that she is mentally ill? How did you reach that decision? Seriously, please explain it, because you haven’t.
    Do you deny that your beliefs about people who are LGBT come from your Christian beliefs?

  • #282820

    cme5
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    I thought Jenner was mentally ill long before his gender identity crisis. The Kardasian/attention seeking nature of his behavior prior to his “coming out” leave me thinking its all part of the act. He was a train wreck prior to all this. I am very sympathetic to transgender issues but am suspicious of Jenner’s intent.

  • #282690

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113230 wrote:

    If you haven’t noticed, I have the high ground here.

    Not really. You are in the mud with him.

    You refer to ‘mental illness’ as if you have facts he doesn’t. That’s what is triggering this round of acid.
    The ‘mental illness’ debate is over. You are essentially asking for a verbal beating by bringing it up.

    The diagnosis docl refers to was dropped from the DSM for a number of reasons, but a big one is the lack of science supporting it and the existence of science conflicting with it. By defending the older version of the DSM, you are pitting Faith against Science. You will lose that battle in this world and people like me will line up against you to deliver the beating if necessary. I’d rather not, but I know where my allegiance must lie.

    This isn’t a fight worth fighting.

  • #282753

    doclaguna
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    @cme5 113246 wrote:

    I thought Jenner was mentally ill long before his gender identity crisis. The Kardasian/attention seeking nature of his behavior prior to his “coming out” leave me thinking its all part of the act. He was a train wreck prior to all this. I am very sympathetic to transgender issues but am suspicious of Jenner’s intent.

    There’s a steady paycheck in it.

  • #282691

    adiffer
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    @newmom 113233 wrote:

    However, we have a legal system in place, and the belief that sex is and should be a consensual act between two people. Just because we descended from animals doesn’t mean that we will erase millions of years of evolution and thinking and accept that an adult should have sex with children and that it’s acceptable. No on in their rights minds believes this, however he is using it as yet another reason to believe people on the left are all horrible.
    Mental illness? Come on. Joan of Arc was believed to be mentally ill-now she is a saint.

    Consider the possibility that our legal system currently criminalizes a behavior that is the norm among Bonobos. We are CLOSELY related to them, so it is not a stretch to recognize some of us would be naturally inclined toward their behavior patterns. So… why are we criminalizing it? We defend children from sexual aggressors, of course. Is everyone who falls under the pedophilia laws a sexual aggressor? I doubt it.

    I’m trying to point out to you that your argument against A>E needs a bit of refinement if you want to stand on firm ground instead of emotionally soft ground. There are a range of behaviors that produce disgust among us. The pedophiles are certainly among them. Until recently, though, so were the homosexuals and transgendered. The difference between us and A>E is that we’ve managed to liberate ourselves somewhat from some of them. He obviously isn’t inclined to follow our example and rightly points out the potential for us to continue with our effort to liberate our neighbors from OUR disgust. He’s using the lame ‘slippery slope’ argument. Let him try. You obviously aren’t inclined to keep sliding even if I am… a bit.

    The firmest argument you can make is an appeal to biology. A>E is obviously wrong, but don’t set yourself up in a trapped corner where someday you’ll be proven wrong too.

  • #282754

    doclaguna
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    You are overthinking it all. Kids can’t give consent. Period. By definition if you can’t give consent any sexual act against you is non-consensual. I don’t think we are moving to a position where we would broaden our definition of normal sexuality to include nonconsesual sex. In fact we are moving away from this, ie not so many years ago you could force yourself on your wife, like she was a piece of property.

  • #282692

    adiffer
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    I sincerely hope you are correct about the trend, but it is a cultural trend in opposition to a set of biological features. I’m not sure we should be criminalizing these behaviors anymore than we should have done with homosexuality. I CAN see the potential for us being just as wrong.

    Consent is a wonderful concept, but a legal age-limit on it is cultural fiction.

  • #282821

    cme5
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    You are overthinking it all. Kids can’t give consent. Period. By definition if you can’t give consent any sexual act against you is non-consensual. I don’t think we are moving to a position where we would broaden our definition of normal sexuality to include nonconsesual sex. In fact we are moving away from this, ie not so many years ago you could force yourself on your wife, like she was a piece of property.

    Right on. To think that we might someday be OK with pedophilia is crazy. And what on gods green earth does bonobo sexual behavior have to do with human law? I don’t get the connection. I think you are trying to hard. They throw feces at rivals, I don’t see it influencing human acceptance.

  • #282825

    tomwaltman
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    If you look back historically, pedophelia was not always considered abnormal, and “consent” is a legal construct that has changed over time. Beware of a short historical view here.

  • #282858

    ActionEmotion
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    Age of consent laws will be changed.

  • #282796

    newmom
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    Where is your proof that this is going to happen? I can say that eating all forms of animal protein will be illegal in 10 years because PETA got new lawyers but that doesn’t make it correct.

  • #282859

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113242 wrote:

    So your objection is not based on your religious beliefs, and just on the fact you are an *******, or what?

    You call me a hater yet you say you want to crush people who are “like me” call me ******* and are just like the radical islamists…seems to me that you are the one with the issue of hate, not me. I just call it as I see it. A man who looks in a mirror and sees a woman has some mental issues. Then wanting to express those issues publicly at the risk of harming his family is just more evidence.

    And yes I have the high ground. I have a strong opinion which differs from the mainstream popular opinion but instead of discussing it like adults some have chosen to take a more inflammatory path by attempting unsuccessfully to berate my faith. A faith and belief system which they do not even understand or care to. its easy to call it hate but it isn’t that at all. its easy to claim that i am trying to prohibit people from personal choices, I’m not, it runs contrary to all i believe in. But instead of learning what that looks like laguna and others decide to try to crush it. It’s the irony that amuses me most. Next you’re going to tell me that you celebrate diversity, lol, what a crock.

  • #282841

    SteveB6509
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    Gee, it’s too bad Caitlyn did add the phrase “because God told me this is my path.” Then Action>Emotion would be OK with this.

    Calling her mentally ill is sad. As DocL said about 60 posts ago, that kind of thinking was back in the 70’s. Thankfully, most of us have progressed and evolved since then.

  • #282693

    adiffer
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    @cme5 113255 wrote:

    Right on. To think that we might someday be OK with pedophilia is crazy. And what on gods green earth does bonobo sexual behavior have to do with human law? I don’t get the connection. I think you are trying to hard. They throw feces at rivals, I don’t see it influencing human acceptance.

    Are you thinking of the chimps? We are closely related to them too, but they aren’t part of the analogy I’m trying to make here.

    I’m not trying to convince you to accept pedophilia. I’m pointing out that A>E’s perception of a slippery slope is not without merit.

  • #282860

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113243 wrote:

    Because calling a transgendered person “mentally ill” isn’t “muddying up” the discussion? What proof do YOU have that she is mentally ill? How did you reach that decision? Seriously, please explain it, because you haven’t.
    Do you deny that your beliefs about people who are LGBT come from your Christian beliefs?

    Proof? What proof do you have that this is genetic and not mental illness? A person with a penis is a male. That’s pretty standard. When feelings start telling a person that what they are is different than who they have been all their lives, that’s not healthy. I challenge you to tell me how this is healthy and good for everyone involved.

    As for my faith, you and laguna are bigots to automatically assume that this is some religious issue. If Bruce jenner wants to pretend he’s a woman, that’s his business. Calling it good and normal and healthy however isn’t something I am willing to do. That’s my business.

  • #282694

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113267 wrote:

    A person with a penis is a male. That’s pretty standard. When feelings start telling a person that what they are is different than who they have been all their lives, that’s not healthy. I challenge you to tell me how this is healthy and good for everyone involved.

    The presence of a penis isn’t really the clincher. It is more important to look at what a person’s endocrine system is saying they are. Your penis isn’t what makes you male. It is evidence of what your endocrine system was doing at a particular time in your life.

  • #282861

    ActionEmotion
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    @steveb6509 113265 wrote:

    Gee, it’s too bad Caitlyn did add the phrase “because God told me this is my path.” Then Action>Emotion would be OK with this.

    Calling her mentally ill is sad. As DocL said about 60 posts ago, that kind of thinking was back in the 70’s. Thankfully, most of us have progressed and evolved since then.

    lol, OK. That kind of thinking, meaning what? Logic? Common sense? Calling him a her is what’s sad. More proof that you and others are the bigots here. If you disagree with a Muslim would you use the same argument even if they never injected religion into the discussion?

  • #282862

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113268 wrote:

    The presence of a penis isn’t really the clincher. It is more important to look at what a person’s endocrine system is saying they are. Your penis isn’t what makes you male.

    Before or after hormone treatments?

  • #282755

    doclaguna
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    @tomwaltman 113258 wrote:

    If you look back historically, pedophelia was not always considered abnormal, and “consent” is a legal construct that has changed over time. Beware of a short historical view here.

    Yes but the trend is towards MORE consent needed, not less. Pedophilia laws have gotten more rigid historically, not less.

  • #282863

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113263 wrote:

    Where is your proof that this is going to happen? I can say that eating all forms of animal protein will be illegal in 10 years because PETA got new lawyers but that doesn’t make it correct.

    The State of New Jersey is my proof. The age of consent is 16 yet individuals can legally engage in sex at age 13 if their partner is less than 4 years older. That change happened in my lifetime. It can happen again, and it is my opinion that it will.

  • #282756

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113264 wrote:

    You call me a hater yet you say you want to crush people who are “like me” call me ******* and are just like the radical islamists…seems to me that you are the one with the issue of hate, not me. I just call it as I see it. A man who looks in a mirror and sees a woman has some mental issues. Then wanting to express those issues publicly at the risk of harming his family is just more evidence.

    And yes I have the high ground. I have a strong opinion which differs from the mainstream popular opinion but instead of discussing it like adults some have chosen to take a more inflammatory path by attempting unsuccessfully to berate my faith. A faith and belief system which they do not even understand or care to. its easy to call it hate but it isn’t that at all. its easy to claim that i am trying to prohibit people from personal choices, I’m not, it runs contrary to all i believe in. But instead of learning what that looks like laguna and others decide to try to crush it. It’s the irony that amuses me most. Next you’re going to tell me that you celebrate diversity, lol, what a crock.

    1. A man who looks in a mirror and sees a woman might have some biological basis for such. There is no mental anguish for him, other than trying to fit the narrow mold you and other dinosaurs in our society try to pigeonhole him into. If he is happy as a woman, where is the “mental illness?”

    2. You must mistake me for one of dem liberals you see hidin’ in the bushes everywhere. I never said I was “tolerant.” I don’t have to be “tolerant” of bigots, where its the type that put women into burkas or fossils like you who would have gays back in closets in unhappy fake marriages.

  • #282797

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113267 wrote:

    Proof? What proof do you have that this is genetic and not mental illness? A person with a penis is a male. That’s pretty standard. When feelings start telling a person that what they are is different than who they have been all their lives, that’s not healthy. I challenge you to tell me how this is healthy and good for everyone involved.

    As for my faith, you and laguna are bigots to automatically assume that this is some religious issue. If Bruce jenner wants to pretend he’s a woman, that’s his business. Calling it good and normal and healthy however isn’t something I am willing to do. That’s my business.

    Do you know that he said felt like a woman all his life? Do you know that he liked to dress up like a girl and was more comfortable dressing as a girl when he was child, but that even then he knew society didn’t allow it, so he hid it? Or are you assuming that because he tried to live life like society has told him he is supposed to, he used to think he was a man and this is a recent change in his thinking?

    Recognizing that sometimes the physical make-up of the body and that of the of the brain don’t agree isn’t unhealthy. It is recognizing that people are sometimes different than what makes us all comfortable and easy. Praising a person who has the courage to come forward and bring attention to such difficult things isn’t celebrating the transgender issue. It’s recognizing the how brave that person is to open herself up to speculation, ridicule, and put downs. Calling people mentally ill because you refuse to acknowledge that things aren’t as simple (penis=male) as you want to believe is close mindedness. I referenced friends earlier in this discussion, and what their child has told them-on his own. A child. Not an attention seeking adult who has lived most of his life in the spot light. Does that sound like the child is confused, or mentally ill, or unhealthy?

  • #282757

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113267 wrote:

    Proof? What proof do you have that this is genetic and not mental illness? A person with a penis is a male. That’s pretty standard. When feelings start telling a person that what they are is different than who they have been all their lives, that’s not healthy. I challenge you to tell me how this is healthy and good for everyone involved.

    As for my faith, you and laguna are bigots to automatically assume that this is some religious issue. If Bruce jenner wants to pretend he’s a woman, that’s his business. Calling it good and normal and healthy however isn’t something I am willing to do. That’s my business.

    So what is a person who lost their penis in an accident? They don’t have a penis so how can they be male according to your logic?
    What about someone born with ambiguous genitals?
    Sexual identity has nothing to do with what is between your legs.
    Most trangendered know they are transgendered from an early age. They just are smart enough to hide it in a culture filled with people like you.

    You better stick to religious dogma. You want to argue this from a science/psych standpoint and I’ll eat you alive.

  • #282798

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113272 wrote:

    The State of New Jersey is my proof. The age of consent is 16 yet individuals can legally engage in sex at age 13 if their partner is less than 4 years older. That change happened in my lifetime. It can happen again, and it is my opinion that it will.

    That has nothing to do with pedophilia, and you know it.

  • #282695

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113270 wrote:

    Before or after hormone treatments?

    If your endocrine system switches over while you are growing up, you get to be both genders. No application of hormones as a treatment is going to resolve that for you. You might develop a bias toward one side or the other, but the treatment will be fighting what your body is inclined to do. The treatment isn’t really curing anything harmful, though. It is creating a bias so the rest of us don’t have to face the gender issue.

    My niece/nephew grew up female, but identified as male part way through high school. That strongly suggests the ‘male’ system was simply waiting for puberty as it does with most of us who identify as male. The female system within her was obviously present too as evidenced by an earlier puberty. I suspect the truth is that she/he is both, but ‘he’ prefers to identify as male, so I’ll go with that. The only harm he is suffering right now is caused by how the rest of us react, so he wants male hormone treatments to make it abundantly clear to all of us what he is. If not for us, he might not care to do that.

  • #282758

    doclaguna
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    @newmom 113277 wrote:

    That has nothing to do with pedophilia, and you know it.

    Next thing ya know ya gonna be having sex with dem goats…

  • #282696

    adiffer
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    @newmom 113277 wrote:

    That has nothing to do with pedophilia, and you know it.

    I agree, but you should probably explain.
    It might help.

  • #282759

    doclaguna
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    @adiffer 113280 wrote:

    I agree, but you should probably explain.
    It might help.

    Ridiculous slippery slope argument in progress.
    “Pretty soon you liberals will be drinking the blood of infants after you have sex with them.”

  • #282902

    plasmadrive
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    @plasmadrive 113057 wrote:

    Why do we care? If this is what people live to see, we need some chlorine in the gene pool.

    Yep.. 11 pages of this junk.. we need chlorine for sure..

  • #282826

    tomwaltman
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    Those would be late-term aborted infants, correct?

  • #282697

    adiffer
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    Drinking their blood? Hmm… close.
    Sucking their stem cells out for vampiric regeneration is what we’d be doing.
    (Probably shouldn’t be swallowing them, though.)

    I have some kidney function I need to replace. Hmm… maybe that is more zombie style than vampire. 8)

    In all seriousness, though, I think newmom’s response points out an important distinction some of us make. Underage sex isn’t necessarily the same as pedophilia to all of us. I suspect she requires the definition to include an act of aggression.

  • #282760

    doclaguna
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    Again, it doesn’t have to be aggression. You can’t consent at that age. Period. Animals and kids can’t consent to sex, therefore sex with them cannot be consensual by definition. That’s where you can throw your monkey analogy out the window. Animals of any age can’t consent to other animals having sex with them.

  • #282698

    adiffer
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    The ledge you walk upon is precariously narrow and your thoughts dangerously circular.

    Animals can’t consent? Ha.

  • #282699

    adiffer
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    The sensible approach to demolishing A>E’s position is to admit the existence of the slope and point out that Science props up our position on the slope better than his. When Creation speaks, She is pretty clear about our nature as animals, so a morally defensible position on the slope is one She points out. Make the argument properly and he won’t even have a faith position that is defendable from within his framework.

  • #282799

    newmom
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    @adiffer 113291 wrote:

    The ledge you walk upon is precariously narrow and your thoughts dangerously circular.

    Animals can’t consent? Ha.

    Animals can’t legally consent to sex with a human.

  • #282761

    doclaguna
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    @newmom 113293 wrote:

    Animals can’t legally consent to sex with a human.

    Animals can’t consent period. They can fight or submit.

  • #282864

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113277 wrote:

    That has nothing to do with pedophilia, and you know it.

    What a bizarre answer. You asked me why I thought the legal age of consent would change and I gave you an example of it changing in the past 20 years. It will change again. Does the consent age have anything to do with pedophilia? Well prior to the change of consent 13 year old was considered a minor and having sex with a 13 year old was considered unlawful because it was in fact pedophilia. Now it isn’t. So yes, it does have something to do with it.

  • #282700

    adiffer
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    Legally. Quite true. What A>E is pointing out is that legal definitions can be changed. That is the basis of his slippery slope argument.
    Resting our side on this definition as if we will never change it is not credible.

    Slavery was once tolerated and legal. Now it is illegal and barely tolerable. (Sex workers)
    Homosexuality has dipped in and out of tolerance through history and often been illegal for one gender or another. We are liberalizing again.

    The hard-core social traditionalists have a point about the slipperiness of our morals. It bugs the **** out of them. They are all about rigidity in that regard. We aren’t and we should own up to that. We should trumpet our ability to learn from past mistakes.

  • #282701

    adiffer
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    @doclaguna 113294 wrote:

    Animals can’t consent period. They can fight or submit.

    How is that any different from what we do?

    We ARE mammals and at this level our higher brains are just extensions of our sex organs.
    There is no separate Mind giving consent to what the Body does.

  • #282800

    newmom
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    Two consenting teens are not the same thing as pedophilia and you know it. You might not like or agree with two teens having sex, but changing the laws regarding the age of consent doesn’t make it pedophilia or not pedophilia.

  • #282865

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113276 wrote:

    So what is a person who lost their penis in an accident? They don’t have a penis so how can they be male according to your logic?
    What about someone born with ambiguous genitals?
    Sexual identity has nothing to do with what is between your legs.
    Most trangendered know they are transgendered from an early age. They just are smart enough to hide it in a culture filled with people like you.

    You better stick to religious dogma. You want to argue this from a science/psych standpoint and I’ll eat you alive.

    Filled with people like me…haha, yeah we need more angry thin skinned emotional infants like you, right doc? That will make the world a better place. Are any of the above examples anything close to being normal? No, they aren’t are they. Accidental loss of a penis doesn’t change gender, ambiguous genitals is a malformation, not normal.

  • #282866

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113298 wrote:

    Two consenting teens are not the same thing as pedophilia and you know it. You might not like or agree with two teens having sex, but changing the laws regarding the age of consent doesn’t make it pedophilia or not pedophilia.

    You miss the point, what about when the 4 year buffer zone is removed and you have one consenting adult and one consenting 13 year old? What then>? How about age lowered to 12 or 11? You do realize that in some cultures, bedding a 10 year old is acceptable regardless of the mans age. Is that pedophilia even if the law says it isn’t? Do’t put your head in the sand just because you hate some idea of a belife system that you think I embrace.

  • #282702

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113295 wrote:

    having sex with a 13 year old was considered unlawful because it was in fact pedophilia.

    It isn’t ya know. They liberalized to allow a 13 and 15 year old to have sex without triggering the law. Where they are still falling down is in the legal inability to recognize when a 30 year old is behaving like a 15 year old. The danger with pedophilia is when the 30 year old is behaving like a 30 year old and still choosing a minor.

  • #282867

    ActionEmotion
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    So your caveat is the level of maturity in the behavior of adults? No, I can’t accept that as credible. That means a murderer who is 30 who is behaving like a 12 year old (who isn’t diagnosed with a mental disorder) gets a reprieve from their crime.Look at ISIL and how they take young girls. In their society there is nothing wrong with it. Raping men is considered permissible punishment. The world is a dark and ugly place filled with depravity.

  • #282703

    adiffer
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    Unlikely. I doubt I could convince people to give them that reprieve.

    I’m around older people who can’t mature and I see some of the consequences. Our laws are way too simple in this respect.

    Your position regarding transgendered people is even more rigid.
    They aren’t suffering a mental illness.
    They are suffering under our rigidity with regards to our expectations of them.

  • #282704

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113302 wrote:

    Look at ISIL and how they take young girls. In their society there is nothing wrong with it. Raping men is considered permissible punishment. The world is a dark and ugly place filled with depravity.

    Yah. I’m aware of their simple definition regarding the ending of the age of minority. If your penis fits, she isn’t a minor anymore. You won’t be too shocked if I object, right? You shouldn’t be too shocked then if I point out that the section of the slope to which you are pointing isn’t slippery in this nation.

  • #282868

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113303 wrote:

    Unlikely. I doubt I could convince people to give them that reprieve.

    I’m around older people who can’t mature and I see some of the consequences. Our laws are way too simple in this respect.

    Your position regarding transgendered people is even more rigid.
    They aren’t suffering a mental illness.
    They are suffering under our rigidity with regards to our expectations of them.

    If that is truth, that the transgendered in each case is a medical provable anomaly which isn’t caused by emotional or mental dysfunction (which is more the norm for all humans than not) then why haven’t the studies come out to show the evidence? I have no ill will toward those whom I consider living a dysfunctional life nor do I wish harm or restriction upon them. My argument is always from the position of forcing me to accept a lie as the truth or be deemed a hater.

    Show me the empirical evidence that supports transgendered adults as being purely an unavoidable physiological disorder and I will have my mind changed by the facts. But don’t lead me to data which is filled with words like “thought to be” or “Points to the possibility” because I’m not buying it. We all know how politically correct government agencies have become buckling under the pressure of community activists demanding that things change for the sake of acceptance.

    My position isn’t rigid, I’m flexible when shown facts and data which lead to real answers.

  • #282801

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113300 wrote:

    You miss the point, what about when the 4 year buffer zone is removed and you have one consenting adult and one consenting 13 year old? What then>? How about age lowered to 12 or 11? You do realize that in some cultures, bedding a 10 year old is acceptable regardless of the mans age. Is that pedophilia even if the law says it isn’t? Do’t put your head in the sand just because you hate some idea of a belife system that you think I embrace.

    Again, you are predicting things that might never, ever happen. Do you really think people will allow to consent age to be lowered to allow an adult to legally have sex with a 13 year old and have it NOT be a crime? You wrote earlier that those on the left want things like that to happen-and I can tell that is absolutely 100% not true. Your dislike for all things of the left is leading you to attribute things to them and make statements that just aren’t true.
    As for other countries-what I consider pedophilia and what other countries recognize are different things. Trust me, my head is nowhere near the sand on any issues regarding women’s rights. Are you aware that in Paraguay a 10 year old girl is being forced to carry her step father’s baby to term? She was raped by him and the government will not allow her to have an abortion, despite the obvious dangers of a 10 year old carrying a baby and giving birth and the horror of being forced to carry baby to term after rape.

  • #282869

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113304 wrote:

    Yah. I’m aware of their simple definition regarding the ending of the age of minority. If your penis fits, she isn’t a minor anymore. You won’t be too shocked if I object, right? You shouldn’t be too shocked then if I point out that the section of the slope to which you are pointing isn’t slippery in this nation.

    Not yet. We are headed there however. When morality is based upon emotions everything is up for grabs.

  • #282870

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113306 wrote:

    Again, you are predicting things that might never, never happen. Do you really think people will allow to consent age to be lowered to allow an adult to legally have sex with a 13 year old and have it NOT be a crime? You wrote earlier that those on the left want things like that to happen-and I can tell that is absolutely 100% not true.
    As for other countries-what I consider pedophilia and what other countries recognize are different things. Trust me, my head is nowhere near the sand on any issues regarding women’s rights. Are you aware that in Paraguay a 10 year old girl is being forced to carry her step father’s baby to term? She was raped by him and the government will not allow her to have an abortion, despite the obvious dangers of a 10 year old carrying a baby and giving birth.

    So you agree that the core of humanity is deprivation and all it takes is a depraved government to allow such actions here. You make my point. Consider the scum that occupies our government offices and the lack of knowledge the average voter has regarding their own government or even the history of the United States and it isn’t impossible to see things like the girl in Paraguay happening here. What happens when communities demand that shariah be allowed in the US? Don’t think that’s coming?

    Those who have faith in humanity have a misplaced faith.

  • #282705

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113307 wrote:

    Not yet. We are headed there however. When morality is based upon emotions everything is up for grabs.

    Ah. The sweet seduction of Revealed Knowledge. eye rolling

    Morality IS emotional for those of us with no Creator to whom we assign the construction of our perceived purpose.
    Morality is emotional for many who believe too because they take that ‘free will’ thing seriously.

    You remind me (lately) of a fellow I know at work who knows I’m an atheist and jumps immediately to the conclusion that I can’t possibly have a moral foundation absent God. I do, but he refuses to believe it. There is no room in his mind for that belief and the other one he has.

    It’s not all up for grabs. Our hearts speak to us in ways we cannot ignore.

  • #282706

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113305 wrote:

    If that is truth, that the transgendered in each case is a medical provable anomaly which isn’t caused by emotional or mental dysfunction (which is more the norm for all humans than not) then why haven’t the studies come out to show the evidence? I have no ill will toward those whom I consider living a dysfunctional life nor do I wish harm or restriction upon them. My argument is always from the position of forcing me to accept a lie as the truth or be deemed a hater.

    Show me the empirical evidence that supports transgendered adults as being purely an unavoidable physiological disorder and I will have my mind changed by the facts. But don’t lead me to data which is filled with words like “thought to be” or “Points to the possibility” because I’m not buying it. We all know how politically correct government agencies have become buckling under the pressure of community activists demanding that things change for the sake of acceptance.

    My position isn’t rigid, I’m flexible when shown facts and data which lead to real answers.

    Medicine isn’t really Science in this respect, so don’t expect that each case has a provable anomaly. Medicine is more of a statistical practice that makes use of Science where it can and sticks to the ‘Do no Harm’ rule otherwise. In the case of transgendered people, they would probably place the burden of proof on you instead by arguing that it isn’t them doing the harm if they choose to do nothing.

    Mental dysfunction is a tricky thing. You have to have a decent standard for what qualifies as correct functioning to define dysfunction. THAT is what has been changing over the decades as certain assumptions about correct functioning were proven to be vulnerable to scientific disproof. Science is mostly about disproving assumed truth enabling us to discard our errors, so alterations in the DSM should be considered in that light. You’ve seen this kind of effort before. Science was originally used to help discover errors of faith in the late medieval times. For that to work, you have to see how Science asks questions of Creation. The answers are rare and often ambiguous, but occasionally they are clear enough we should adjust our perceptions.

  • #282802

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113308 wrote:

    So you agree that the core of humanity is deprivation and all it takes is a depraved government to allow such actions here. You make my point. Consider the scum that occupies our government offices and the lack of knowledge the average voter has regarding their own government or even the history of the United States and it isn’t impossible to see things like the girl in Paraguay happening here. What happens when communities demand that shariah be allowed in the US? Don’t think that’s coming?

    Those who have faith in humanity have a misplaced faith.

    Um, no to the the core of humanity bit.
    “Lack of knowledge”-you mean like most politicians have regarding women, a women’s body, and reproduction? (Think “legitimate rape” comments). The abortion laws in Paraguay are based on their strict Cathololic beliefs-but you are welcome to call the Catholic religion depraved and lacking knowledge.
    No, I don’t think Shariah is coming.
    1. Shariah law is repressive and dangerous to women and a civilized society, and even the most tolerant of people sees that.
    2. Those on the left that you vilify so easily will never allow any religion-even if it isn’t a Christian religion-to be anywhere near government.
    3. The right would never allow it either-you can’t get more “unAmerican” than Sharia.
    3. Women in this country will never allow Shariah law.
    4. There are a lot of people in this country will riot of anything related to Islam becomes main stream on this country.

  • #282660

    EGL Admin
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    Looks like I missed a lot of fun yesterday.

    Before all this became public knowledge of the transgender issue with Jenner, I think a lot of people thought he was mentally ill because of all the plastic surgeries. People who do all these surgeries, trying to look better and end up looking worse, I think that is a mental illness.

    I haven’t read any of the interviews, but someone told me that they read or saw on TV that Jenner said he still likes women and that he wasn’t sure if he was going to have his penis removed or not. There was something else about the country club that Jenner belongs to. The club has separate male and female facilities. The men’s facilities has a really nice dining area and the women’s facility is not as nice. Supposedly the club told Jenner he had to stay on the women’s side now and Jenner is upset. Seems kind of strange to want to be a woman, but still enjoy the perks of being a man. Transgender people are supposedly upset because he doesn’t know if he wants to have his penis removed. This is stuff I heard from someone who has been following it. No idea how true any of it is.

    It’s his choice to do whatever the heck he wants, but people are going to comment on it, voice their opinions and say he is mentally ill.

  • #282661

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 113311 wrote:

    Um, no to the the core of humanity bit.
    “Lack of knowledge”-you mean like most politicians have regarding women, a women’s body, and reproduction? (Think “legitimate rape” comments). The abortion laws in Paraguay are based on their strict Cathololic beliefs-but you are welcome to call the Catholic religion depraved and lacking knowledge.
    No, I don’t think Shariah is coming.
    1. Shariah law is repressive and dangerous to women and a civilized society, and even the most tolerant of people sees that.
    2. Those on the left that you vilify so easily will never allow any religion-even if it isn’t a Christian religion-to be anywhere near government.
    3. The right would never allow it either-you can’t get more “unAmerican” than Sharia.
    3. Women in this country will never allow Shariah law.
    4. There are a lot of people in this country will riot of anything related to Islam becomes main stream on this country.

    I agree that no one will allow Islam to be a part of the government, but there certainly is a lack of criticism from a lot of people about the religion and specifically how it treats women. If Christian women were supposed to wear head coverings and cover themselves all up, there would such a huge public outcry about that. I think Islam gets a pass on a lot of stuff because people are afraid to be critical of it. People say, oh that’s part of the religion for women to dress like that. So it’s okay for that to be part of the religion, but not for Christians? And let’s not forget, Muslims are far more intolerant of gays than Christians.

  • #282707

    adiffer
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    The lack of criticism is to be expected. One of our cultural rules is to treat religion as a private matter, so open criticism regarding it requires an irritant to surpass a certain level before it occurs. I’m seeing evidence that this is beginning to happen, though. When people organize ‘draw the prophet’ events and ensure there is enough hired security to blow away the fools who show up to object, that is a sign.

    A>E is a bit too hooked on his doom and gloom belief. He underestimates just how vicious the response would be from people he thinks live life without a rudder to some of the things he thinks could happen. That suggests he can’t imagine being us anymore and that’s a shame. That is a necessary skill for love.

  • #282662

    EGL Admin
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    Saw this posted on Facebook. For those that don’t know, the ESPY’s given away by ESPN every year is giving this year’s Arthur Ashe Courage Award to Bruce Jenner.

    This is what someone posted on FB. I agree 100%. of the 4 people in the photo below, Jenner is the least heroic of all of them.

    I am pretty blown away and disappointed in the fact that the Arthur Ashe Courage Award will be presented this year to Bruce Jenner. It is scary to think that we now live in a society that makes their decisions on what is trending instead of what is right. How can the ESPYS overlook Lauren Hill who battled cancer while COURAGEOUSLY playing the sport she loved until the end of her beautiful time on this earth. The way she lived her life has and will continue to inspire others to never stop living your life. How can they look past Noah Galloway? This REAL HERO put his life on the line everyday so that we could live safely in America and so Bruce can play dress up. While fighting for our freedom Noah lost his left arm and leg but through adversity he continues to COURAGEOUSLY compete and fight every day of his life. Finally, let’s look at Jim Kelly. As an athlete, he was already a hero to many and when cancer came knocking on his door he punched it right in the mouth. Jim showed people that it’s okay to be scared but it’s not okay to give up the fight, this man has shown COURAGE. If the ESPYS wanted to give Bruce Jenner an award for his sports accomplishments then I would back them 100% because he truly was an exceptional athlete but to call him a hero and courageous for having plastic surgery and wearing women’s clothing simply because he is not happy with the way he looks is a complete disgrace to the Arthur Ashe Courage Award. If Bruce truly wants to be known as Courageous, then make this right by not accepting the award and give it to someone who actually exemplifies COURAGE.

    [IMG]https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11391102_10152780298081852_8848370707194763556_n.jpg?oh=8591f4190904b07dd5ce74bd7eae638e&oe=55F286F5[/IMG]

  • #282803

    newmom
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    I aree that Jenner his not nearly as worthy as some other athletes for the award. I think that there are other athletes-some of them mentioned in the post, that are far more deserving for this distinguished honor. I don’t agree with how the second to the last sentence was written though.

  • #282663

    EGL Admin
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    I think this is a case of people falling all over themselves to try and show compassion and be the most compassionate one. Lest we forget that Bruce was part of accident that killed someone. I don’t know if fault was determined yet.

  • #282871

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113309 wrote:

    Ah. The sweet seduction of Revealed Knowledge. eye rolling

    Morality IS emotional for those of us with no Creator to whom we assign the construction of our perceived purpose.
    Morality is emotional for many who believe too because they take that ‘free will’ thing seriously.

    You remind me (lately) of a fellow I know at work who knows I’m an atheist and jumps immediately to the conclusion that I can’t possibly have a moral foundation absent God. I do, but he refuses to believe it. There is no room in his mind for that belief and the other one he has.

    It’s not all up for grabs. Our hearts speak to us in ways we cannot ignore.

    Here is where you fall into the doclaguna spot for assessing a comment then ascribing a trait because you have no other label to stick on it that makes sense to you. That’s a behavior which shuns critical thought and embraces hubris. Instead of telling me that I remind you of a fellow who __________ why not make sure that what you are hearing is what I am saying.

    If morality is emotional then you deceive yourself into choosing morality based on personal feelings rather than critical thought. It makes morality subjective to individual feelings which can never be governed or managed until mob mentality takes over and demands it. This is why emotion based thinking is irrational. To the Nazi’s killing Jews was an act of morality. To the Islamists, beheading infidels is morality. Logically, when critical thought is applied these emotional decisions cannot stand.

    I agree that belief is emotional for many which is why I wrote my book, to warn believers about embracing ideas based upon their feelings which oppose the very faith that they claim to embrace. It is a self focused practice which causes only pain and disruption and is anathema to the call to love ones neighbor.

    Yes, our hearts lead us in many directions, choosing which direction to head takes a more deliberate process than going with ones gut feelings.

    As for morality without God, it’s the same as saying one cannot love without God. The statement is true however not in the way you understand it. One does not need to know God to feel or experience love at a certain level or embrace morality at a certain level because the residual effects of the presence of God exists in the world. That’s the short explanation. If you ever want to discuss it in detail let me know.

  • #282872

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113376 wrote:

    The lack of criticism is to be expected. One of our cultural rules is to treat religion as a private matter, so open criticism regarding it requires an irritant to surpass a certain level before it occurs. I’m seeing evidence that this is beginning to happen, though. When people organize ‘draw the prophet’ events and ensure there is enough hired security to blow away the fools who show up to object, that is a sign.

    A>E is a bit too hooked on his doom and gloom belief. He underestimates just how vicious the response would be from people he thinks live life without a rudder to some of the things he thinks could happen. That suggests he can’t imagine being us anymore and that’s a shame. That is a necessary skill for love.

    Wow, pulled that right out of your hat did you? I underestimate nothing with regard to how people will react to shariah or some of the other abominations we currently allow without push back from the majority. What you ignore are these things which already go unchecked which are an abomination to the idea which is This country and it’s liberty out of fear or complacency. You see we Americans have become lulled into a self entered existence which allows for horrendous things to take place without any action or reaction other than some internet babble on social media which amounts to nothing because we are too comfortable, over entertained and oblivious to the actual events which are shaping our culture. People are outraged over politically incorrect speech and demand that punishment be taken to its extreme over feelings being hurt yet allow for certain groups to use even more harsh, downright hateful speech without recoil. There are groups that are allowed to offend, cause damage, even violence without reprimand and others who are punished for merely suggesting it. This alone allows me to recognize the foolish culture that we are forced to allow or be castigated and punished for stepping outside the guidelines of society.

    The contradictions are obvious yet no one dares mention them in public. If you don’t see this as an open door for more of the same then you aren’t paying attention at all. It isn’t doom and gloom, it’s people seeing horrible events and learning not to be shocked by them as much because, after all, season 7 of Son’s of Anarchy is now available on Netflix.

  • #282903

    plasmadrive
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    15 pages!!!! Really? Now where did I put the chlorine again?????

  • #282664

    EGL Admin
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    Mine only says 4 pages. You should change your settings.

  • #282762

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113706 wrote:

    As for morality without God, it’s the same as saying one cannot love without God. The statement is true however not in the way you understand it. One does not need to know God to feel or experience love at a certain level or embrace morality at a certain level because the residual effects of the presence of God exists in the world. That’s the short explanation. If you ever want to discuss it in detail let me know.

    I don’t want to be accused of putting words in your mouth, but are saying us non-believers cannot be as moral as believers, or experience love in the same way as believers?

  • #282708

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113706 wrote:

    Here is where you fall into the doclaguna spot for assessing a comment then ascribing a trait because you have no other label to stick on it that makes sense to you. That’s a behavior which shuns critical thought and embraces hubris. Instead of telling me that I remind you of a fellow who __________ why not make sure that what you are hearing is what I am saying.

    Actually, I’m being very precise here for exactly the reason you point out. I’m not accusing you of being like the guy I know at work. I’m saying you sound like him lately. I’m quite willing to paraphrase you as a partial echo to see if I have it right, but analogy is fair game too. Human knowledge is analogical.

    Quote:
    If morality is emotional then you deceive yourself into choosing morality based on personal feelings rather than critical thought. It makes morality subjective to individual feelings which can never be governed or managed until mob mentality takes over and demands it. This is why emotion based thinking is irrational. To the Nazi’s killing Jews was an act of morality. To the Islamists, beheading infidels is morality. Logically, when critical thought is applied these emotional decisions cannot stand.

    I have a number of issues with what you say here. First is that morality is founded upon emotion while critical analysis enables us to deal with conflicts and errors. It is hubris of intellect to argue that critical thought plays a more important role than this. There is generally no value to arguing with someone over what they feel is and isn’t moral. Critical argument might succeed in altering their willingness to tolerate otherwise objectionable behaviors, but I’ve never seen a good case for anything other than an emotional epiphany moving someone’s moral position.

    The second is this whole concept of governance of individual feelings. I fully accept that critical thought must try to moderate emotional thought, but I don’t believe for a moment it is possible to govern it, let alone rule it. I consider those who do to be deluded by a sweet seduction and possibly guilty of excessive pride if they think they did it themselves or guilty of the ‘chosen one’ fantasy if they think they received successful external help. As for the need for governance, though, I’m rather prickly. I am willing to govern myself, but adamantly opposed to placing myself under anyone else’s tutelage. I am an adult human responsible for myself. The consequences of my actions are mine to enjoy or suffer as I choose.

    Finally, I agree with your concern over Nazi’s and Islamists. They successfully managed to twist their morality around to something quite evil. Governing emotional thought isn’t the solution to prevent that, though. I invite you to recognize the true enemy here and help crush it. It is an ancient meme that lives parasitically though us causing terrible suffering. Its name is Historicism.

    Quote:
    Yes, our hearts lead us in many directions, choosing which direction to head takes a more deliberate process than going with ones gut feelings.

    I quite agree. I use an alliance between emotion and analysis. It has served me well.

    Quote:
    As for morality without God, it’s the same as saying one cannot love without God. The statement is true however not in the way you understand it. One does not need to know God to feel or experience love at a certain level or embrace morality at a certain level because the residual effects of the presence of God exists in the world. That’s the short explanation. If you ever want to discuss it in detail let me know.

    Heh. I’ve heard this variation too, but I appreciate you delivering it politely. The problem I have with it is it demonstrates you are guilty of following the ‘chosen one’ insanity. I perceive that insanity as a ‘mind death’, so I cannot willingly follow you into that any more than I can end my own life.

  • #282709

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113707 wrote:

    The contradictions are obvious yet no one dares mention them in public. If you don’t see this as an open door for more of the same then you aren’t paying attention at all. It isn’t doom and gloom, it’s people seeing horrible events and learning not to be shocked by them as much because, after all, season 7 of Son’s of Anarchy is now available on Netflix.

    Heh. Now you are reminding me of pre-Civil War Abolitionists. I agree with you regarding some of your negative reactions and disagree on others, but I think you’ve vastly underestimated the people around you. What you are seeing is social inertia. Much the same happened before the Civil War and even in the first couple years of that war. I see something similar happening today, but it won’t be the Islamists (at least not necessarily) who get their asses handed to them. It will be the neo-confederates. It will be the people who rebel against this open civilization we’ve been building for a few generations. Civilization’s defenders are a little slow and disinclined to kill, but some of them are getting riled. If the rebellion continues, there is only one outcome I think is possible. We will have a modern analogy for Sherman’s march to the sea.

  • #282710

    adiffer
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    @plasmadrive 113723 wrote:

    15 pages!!!! Really? Now where did I put the chlorine again?????

    If you want to stay sane reading any thread that riles the old-timers around here, you’ll need to change your settings to see 40 posts per page.
    You’ll be able to skip over some of us long-winded gas bags much easier that way. 8)

  • #282778

    joy
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    @Action>Emotion 113707 wrote:

    … It isn’t doom and gloom, it’s people seeing horrible events and learning not to be shocked by them as much because, after all, season 7 of Son’s of Anarchy is now available on Netflix.

    I see what you did there. Way to steer back to the thread and make the Caitlyn/Venus connection!

    😮

  • #282804

    newmom
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    Since not all of us watch SOA, is Venus a character on the show, or are we talking the planet?

  • #282665

    EGL Admin
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    I think it’s the women’s razor.

  • #282779

    joy
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    [ATTACH=CONFIG]1965[/ATTACH]

  • #282666

    EGL Admin
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    Is that dude dressed like a lady?

  • #282827

    tomwaltman
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    Dude looks like a lady…

  • #282667

    EGL Admin
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    People should dress however they want, but don’t force acceptance on people and don’t expect to be free from criticism.

  • #282873

    ActionEmotion
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    @joy 113750 wrote:

    I see what you did there. Way to steer back to the thread and make the Caitlyn/Venus connection!

    😮

    No, that’s you making a connection, not me.

  • #282874

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113725 wrote:

    I don’t want to be accused of putting words in your mouth, but are saying us non-believers cannot be as moral as believers, or experience love in the same way as believers?

    The challenge in answering your question lies in your definition of believer. Rather than go through all of that I will say this: God is the only source of love, kindness, morality or anything good. If any human displays these qualities at any point within their lives it is because of exposure to God’s presence in the world. Man is incapable of good without God. Man is depraved.

    For those of you who reject this truth I suggest that you re familiarize yourself with human history. The reason you know the names of people who buck the trend is because they are the ones who were different. Humans are liars, thieves, murderers, power hungry, self centered and sexually immoral animals. This is our natural state, it is normal behavior.

  • #282668

    EGL Admin
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    Humans are liars, thieves, murderers, power hungry, self centered and sexually immoral animals. This is our natural state, it is normal behavior.

    I think it’s also the litmus test for entering the democratic party. 😉

  • #282763

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113786 wrote:

    The challenge in answering your question lies in your definition of believer. Rather than go through all of that I will say this: God is the only source of love, kindness, morality or anything good. If any human displays these qualities at any point within their lives it is because of exposure to God’s presence in the world. Man is incapable of good without God. Man is depraved.

    For those of you who reject this truth I suggest that you re familiarize yourself with human history. The reason you know the names of people who buck the trend is because they are the ones who were different. Humans are liars, thieves, murderers, power hungry, self centered and sexually immoral animals. This is our natural state, it is normal behavior.

    Shouldn’t the more important definition be “non-believer?”
    So in some isolated culture where there’s been no exposure to the Christian God, (because, again, not to put words in your mouth, but that’s what you mean by “God” I’m assuming,) there can’t be good?

  • #282875

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113737 wrote:

    I have a number of issues with what you say here. First is that morality is founded upon emotion while critical analysis enables us to deal with conflicts and errors. It is hubris of intellect to argue that critical thought plays a more important role than this. There is generally no value to arguing with someone over what they feel is and isn’t moral. Critical argument might succeed in altering their willingness to tolerate otherwise objectionable behaviors, but I’ve never seen a good case for anything other than an emotional epiphany moving someone’s moral position.

    The second is this whole concept of governance of individual feelings. I fully accept that critical thought must try to moderate emotional thought, but I don’t believe for a moment it is possible to govern it, let alone rule it. I consider those who do to be deluded by a sweet seduction and possibly guilty of excessive pride if they think they did it themselves or guilty of the ‘chosen one’ fantasy if they think they received successful external help. As for the need for governance, though, I’m rather prickly. I am willing to govern myself, but adamantly opposed to placing myself under anyone else’s tutelage. I am an adult human responsible for myself. The consequences of my actions are mine to enjoy or suffer as I choose.

    This is the belief which in my opinion lies at the root of our current sociological issues. It is taught in universities and in high schools and it is completely backward. Morality isn’t founded on emotion. Morality exists apart from man. It is man who has skewed morality because of their emotions because emotions are often erratic and irrational. Morality is never either of these things.

    It is man’s moral responsibility to govern and control his emotions by applying critical thought to them. Without this necessity we end up with…well Ferguson and the racial hypocrisy of the white privilege movement and radical atheists who refuse to allow any mention of God in government while ignoring the mention of God in all of the founding documents and on all of the national buildings and monuments in Washington. It’s irrational to rely upon your feelings to guide you when your feelings are yours alone. Nobody can feel them but you. Critical thought however demands that we recognize this truth. It demands that we recognize that not everyone has the same perspective or life experience. That other ideas will exist and demanding that those which stray from the current trend be abolished or crushed is not only irrational but immoral and in complete opposition to the ideas with which this nation was founded.

    I don’t care how you feel, that will pass. I care what you think because those thoughts have gone through a process which must be free from emotions in order for them to maintain consistency. I can say, “I feel like this but the facts say something different.” what then is my decision going to be based upon, my feelings or the facts? If it’s feelings then you are no more than a selfish ignoramus who seeks to please only your emotion which will be short lived at best.

    Your feelings aren’t anything of worth to the world. Your thoughts words and actions however, are of great import.

  • #282876

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113788 wrote:

    Shouldn’t the more important definition be “non-believer?”
    So in some isolated culture where there’s been no exposure to the Christian God, (because, again, not to put words in your mouth, but that’s what you mean by “God” I’m assuming,) there can’t be good?

    How can you define non-believer without first defining believer? There is only one God, the creator of all things. The presence of God in this world is the source of all things good whether one recognizes that source or rejects it. Without God’s presence nothing good can exist. Like eye sight is only possible with the presence of light, goodness is only possible with the presence of God. Without Him all is darkness.

  • #282832

    violarose
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    Whhhaaaaaaaaa she has a better chest than me and my daughters! Poor us. How will we ever survive. ! ( Let her be, change the tv channel, thats what I do!!!!!)

  • #282764

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113792 wrote:

    How can you define non-believer without first defining believer? There is only one God, the creator of all things. The presence of God in this world is the source of all things good whether one recognizes that source or rejects it. Without God’s presence nothing good can exist. Like eye sight is only possible with the presence of light, goodness is only possible with the presence of God. Without Him all is darkness.

    Is a Muslim a non-believer or a believer in your world view?

  • #282877

    ActionEmotion
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    So you are more interested an having me make choices as to who is legitimate and who isn’t (in your scope of understanding) than understanding the genesis of my position with regard to goodness and depravity? I’m not interested in playing God, I’d rather worship Him.

  • #282765

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113801 wrote:

    So you are more interested an having me make choices as to who is legitimate and who isn’t (in your scope of understanding) than understanding the genesis of my position with regard to goodness and depravity? I’m not interested in playing God, I’d rather worship Him.

    I think your world view is very sad, not in the “pathetic” sense, but in the “tragic” sense. I feel man made God, not the other way around, hence man is the source of all goodness, and yes all evil in the world. The idea that we are “depraved” is not in line with what I’ve experienced in the world.

  • #282878

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113803 wrote:

    I think your world view is very sad, not in the “pathetic” sense, but in the “tragic” sense. I feel man made God, not the other way around, hence man is the source of all goodness, and yes all evil in the world. The idea that we are “depraved” is not in line with what I’ve experienced in the world.

    Your feelings aren’t credible. If you felt someone had cancer would you begin treating them for cancer or would you do the necessary investigation to determine if they actually did have the disease? Rhetorical question, no need to answer. We all know the answer. If you actually knew more about what it is that I believe we could have a conversation but you don’t care about that. You are too busy trying to play gotcha, not to support your atheistic views but to discredit my beliefs. I find that to be irrational as well.

  • #282766

    doclaguna
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    I don’t understand your cancer analogy at all.
    There is more empiric evidence in the belief that man created God to explain the unexplainable than there is evidence for God’s existence. Putting that all aside, there is no “gotcha” in my questions. I feel your world view, in regards to human nature, is very sad.

  • #282879

    ActionEmotion
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    Well, once again, you feel what ever you want to feel, just don’t expect me to give those feelings any weight. If you had enough evidence to back those feelings you might be inclined to allow critical thought to win the battle in your head and you might discover that the person you feel is such a hateful judgmental person is actually someone you could agree with. Your choice.

  • #282767

    doclaguna
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    I can’t agree with the worldview that all good flows from an imaginary being. It sounds like a monumental cop out, and I love my fellow man too much to believe that.

  • #282780

    joy
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    @Action>Emotion 113783 wrote:

    No, that’s you making a connection, not me.

    Sarcasm. Should have used the :sarcastic

  • #282805

    newmom
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    No, apparently this was more appropriate. Damn it, Joy!! :doom:

  • #282711

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113790 wrote:

    Morality isn’t founded on emotion. Morality exists apart from man.

    Yah. Plato’s ideal forms. We are the imperfect representations of an ideal represented elsewhere. Plato was simply wrong. Creation says otherwise and the open civilization we’ve been building in the centuries since we learned this is making use of this better understanding.
    You’ve got the historicism meme stuck in your head. Plato’s ideals enable us to imagine templates to which we are supposed to fit and that our imperfection implies a predictable future history. Historicism enables belief in prophecy and that is what makes it such a deadly meme.

    Quote:
    It is man’s moral responsibility to govern and control his emotions by applying critical thought to them. Without this necessity we end up with…well Ferguson and the racial hypocrisy of the white privilege movement and radical atheists who refuse to allow any mention of God in government while ignoring the mention of God in all of the founding documents and on all of the national buildings and monuments in Washington.

    I mostly agree here with the caveat that the moral responsibility is self-assigned. I don’t mind you thinking the responsibility is assigned externally because it doesn’t make any practical difference to me.

    The issue with mentioning God is that the Founders were pretty clear that they didn’t want their new nation to have any social authority on such matters. The government was to be stripped of any moral authority on matters of faith. The authority was to remain with us and assigned as we saw fit. My personal objection to people assigning any to government is that government tends to abuse such things without really meaning to do so. Blocking their ability to mention God is mostly about preventing a slippery slope about which I worry. We slid a long way down that slope until mid-20th century, so my fear is not unfounded.

    Quote:
    It’s irrational to rely upon your feelings to guide you when your feelings are yours alone. Nobody can feel them but you.

    Oops. Again, Creation says otherwise. Catch up on your science reading please or accept that some of us know better. Consider the verb ‘to love’ and try to distinguish it from ‘to lust’ and the warm, fuzzy feelings we get when we do either of them correctly. What exactly are we doing when we ‘love’ someone? Dig into that a bit and you’ll discover we can feel what others feel and even think a bit like they do as well. Emotions are easiest, but not trivially easy.

    Quote:
    Critical thought however demands that we recognize this truth. It demands that we recognize that not everyone has the same perspective or life experience.

    No. Critical thought makes no such demands. Our morality does. Our feelings do.

    Quote:
    I don’t care how you feel, that will pass. I care what you think because those thoughts have gone through a process which must be free from emotions in order for them to maintain consistency.

    Your feelings aren’t anything of worth to the world. Your thoughts words and actions however, are of great import.

    Take care how you do this with others, but I think I understand what you are saying and don’t mind your error too much. Basically, you are imagining me (and others) and two distinct parts. I’m not a dualist except where it is convenient to use the illusion. My feelings are thoughts just as much as my critical analyses are. If you care for one, you won’t be able to avoid the other because mine are strongly allied. Those two parts of me made friends of each other long ago after the confusion of puberty. It’s an awesome alliance and served me well.

  • #282712

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113808 wrote:

    Your feelings aren’t credible.[/quote]

    Okay. You’ve convinced me you passed through a Hell to get where you are now. This is an obvious repression.

    Quote:
    If you felt someone had cancer would you begin treating them for cancer or would you do the necessary investigation to determine if they actually did have the disease? Rhetorical question, no need to answer.

    Let me offer you some critical analysis.

    Do you think (try to imagine yourself as doclaguna for a moment) that he would ‘feel’ that someone had cancer absent the ‘necessary investigation’?

    Remember that he is a trained investigator. Every question he asks a patient is a probe. Every look, poke, and listening-to is part of his training. He has years of re-enforcement for that training, so I strongly suspect he can’t turn it off easily.

    Such experts are in a rather practical sense, very smart appliances. They do what they do because that is what they are and they can’t be much else. Humans are obviously much more than toasters, but expert training conditions us to be a bit like them… only smarter.

  • #282833

    violarose
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    I believe in God. I count on him everyday. I thought my last post would make you all stop discussing this. :taser

  • #282880

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113854 wrote:

    Okay. You’ve convinced me you passed through a Hell to get where you are now. This is an obvious repression.

    Let me offer you some critical analysis.

    Do you think (try to imagine yourself as doclaguna for a moment) that he would ‘feel’ that someone had cancer absent the ‘necessary investigation’?

    Remember that he is a trained investigator. Every question he asks a patient is a probe. Every look, poke, and listening-to is part of his training. He has years of re-enforcement for that training, so I strongly suspect he can’t turn it off easily.

    Such experts are in a rather practical sense, very smart appliances. They do what they do because that is what they are and they can’t be much else. Humans are obviously much more than toasters, but expert training conditions us to be a bit like them… only smarter.

    Thats why I said it was a rhetorical question. Naturally a trained physician would investigate. That was my point. Making assessments on others based on your feelings rather than a credible examination is a selfish and fruitless activity unless one doesn’t mind being wrong to suit their feelings.

  • #282768

    doclaguna
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    @violarose 113856 wrote:

    I believe in God. I count on him everyday. I thought my last post would make you all stop discussing this. :taser

    No one is presuming to tell you not to believe in God, but if you try to tell me us horrible non-believers cannot be ethical or experience love in the way believers do, I will challenge that thought.

  • #282881

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 113854 wrote:

    Okay. You’ve convinced me you passed through a Hell to get where you are now. This is an obvious repression.

    My comment that his feelings aren’t credible was to the response that he felt that man made God. I would imagine that you feel the same feeling. To that I say your feelings are not credible. Just because you feel it doesn’t mean it has any credibility.

    This feelings based morality you embrace is very illustrative of the reason that our society is as messed up as it is. You feel one thing, this group feels another and yet another 100 groups feel another 100 different things and the one who wins is the group that amasses the most power and political activism. It doesn’t mean it is moral, it just means one group was louder and more frightening to politicians. That isn’t morality, that’s insanity run amok.

    Because you reject God you reject the idea that morality exists apart from man. You lift man up as a supernatural being able to create love and morality out of his own depravity. Because that isn’t logical, you shun the notion of mans depravity. I understand that you and I disagree but why must you attempt to label it? repression? Doesn’t it make more sense to know a person better before making such a judgement?

  • #282882

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113870 wrote:

    No one is presuming to tell you not to believe in God, but if you try to tell me us horrible non-believers cannot be ethical or experience love in the way believers do, I will challenge that thought.

    And who said that? Nobody but you made that comment. But you react to me as if I was the person who said it because it is what you “feel” I believe. That’s a little weird don’t you think?

  • #282713

    adiffer
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    @violarose 113856 wrote:

    I believe in God. I count on him everyday. I thought my last post would make you all stop discussing this. :taser

    That’s fine. Don’t worry too much about our arguments if you can help it. We kinda like talking about this stuff.
    Personally, I have no desire to cause a crisis of faith in anyone, so nothing I say is intended to cause you any grief.
    Such a crisis is hellish from what I’ve seen and I think it would be an evil thing to push someone in that direction.

    Enjoy your life as much as you can.
    Take comfort from any quarter when you can’t.

  • #282714

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113869 wrote:

    Thats why I said it was a rhetorical question. Naturally a trained physician would investigate. That was my point. [/quote]

    Okay. That makes sense now.

    Quote:
    Making assessments on others based on your feelings rather than a credible examination is a selfish and fruitless activity unless one doesn’t mind being wrong to suit their feelings.

    Selfish? No.
    Human? Yes.

    Where we get selfish is when we expect those assessments to be correct and validated by those around us.
    It is in the responses we demand that we become selfish.

    Besides, we really should be used to being wrong. We are finite beings with finite time to accumulate experience.
    We are only right in the sense of being ‘right enough’. Humility starts with the realization ‘I could be wrong.’

  • #282883

    ActionEmotion
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    Being used to being wrong is a far cry from knowing what you say is wrong but saying it anyway because it makes you feel superior.

  • #282834

    violarose
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    I just have to speak up for what I believe in . Every believer might want to do that, it just helps clear ones soul when people are fighting over it.

  • #282715

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113872 wrote:

    My comment that his feelings aren’t credible was to the response that he felt that man made God. I would imagine that you feel the same feeling. To that I say your feelings are not credible. Just because you feel it doesn’t mean it has any credibility.[/quote]

    To which I would respond with a… duh! None of us are authorities with unchallengeable positions.

    What I’m pointing out is that we aren’t discredited either. One person’s perspective of their own experiences is not so easily discounted due to their feelings. Saying he isn’t credible had better not include the extension. Discounting his feelings on the matter is no better than some atheists do when they point out that your feelings drive you to believe insanities. Your feelings matter and they shouldn’t be dismissing them unless they intend to dismiss you in your entirety.

    Quote:
    This feelings based morality you embrace is very illustrative of the reason that our society is as messed up as it is. You feel one thing, this group feels another and yet another 100 groups feel another 100 different things and the one who wins is the group that amasses the most power and political activism. It doesn’t mean it is moral, it just means one group was louder and more frightening to politicians. That isn’t morality, that’s insanity run amok.

    Nonsense. That’s just what it means to be human. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. In a liberal democracy, we try to arrange things so the winner doesn’t have so much power that they can create a tyranny of the majority. Doing that requires we all feel there is value in the effort. The analyses that support this value are created/motivated by those feelings.

    Your belief system isn’t dominant. Neither is mine. Neither are any of those 100 groups you describe. Some of us have some overlapping parts in our belief systems and it is on that common ground that we’ve managed to erect a civilization. I’m okay with that as long as no one pushes me too much.

    Quote:
    Because you reject God you reject the idea that morality exists apart from man. You lift man up as a supernatural being able to create love and morality out of his own depravity. Because that isn’t logical, you shun the notion of mans depravity. I understand that you and I disagree but why must you attempt to label it? repression? Doesn’t it make more sense to know a person better before making such a judgement?

    First off… I don’t reject God. I don’t understand God and I mistrust Man when he tries to convince me of something that seems to benefit him and harm me.

    Second… I don’t believe in magic and strongly mistrust magical thinking, so I see no way for morality to exist independent of a host being. I could be wrong. Convince me.

    Third… I don’t lift Man to a supernatural status. Quite the opposite. He is natural. He is a creature of tooth and claw. Natural creatures can love, though. Love is as ancient as the reptiles. If you have an amygdala, you can love. Humans are better at it than all the other natural creatures, though.

    To Love is To Copy another person into yourself. The copy isn’t perfect, but the longer you work at it, the better the copy is. If you are loved, you exist inside more than one skull, but with highest fidelity within your own skull. If you love, you are a crowd of personas with varying degrees of completeness and levels of consistency. If you can ask yourself what is the favorite color of someone close to you and answer accurately without asking the question of them directly, you have a partial copy of them in your head and you asked it instead.

    The neat thing about this bit of knowledge is that if there IS a God like the one you believe exists, His love for us would be the obvious path to eternal existence. As long as we didn’t do something that prevented Him from loving us, the rest falls out logically. The problem for someone like me is that I don’t see how I’m supposed to love Him as part of that. I mistrust Man and the only ‘evidence’ I have of God has supposedly been revealed through Man.

    Regarding the label, I’ve cautiously avoided using the ‘repression’ label for years with you, but I’m now convinced. Of course… I could be wrong… but I don’t think I am.
    You are hiding from a Hell behind a belief in your own depravity. I want no part of it. I know my own heart well enough to reject that meme. I am capable of loving and being loved.

    Do you see how this folds back to the original intent of this thread? Labeling their condition as mental illness may seem like an act of love, but to many of us who witness this, it look more like an act of pity at best. To love them is much harder and much easier. They are humans with the same needs to love and be loved.

  • #282806

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113873 wrote:

    And who said that? Nobody but you made that comment. But you react to me as if I was the person who said it because it is what you “feel” I believe. That’s a little weird don’t you think?

    “No one is presuming to tell you not to believe in God, but if you try to tell me us horrible non-believers cannot be ethical or experience love in the way believers do, I will challenge that thought.” (DocL)

    A>E “God is the only source of love, kindness, morality or anything good. If any human displays these qualities at any point within their lives it is because of exposure to God’s presence in the world. Man is incapable of good without God. Man is depraved. “

    Your point seems to be that the only reason love exists, or that we feel love, is because of God. That even those of us that don’t believe in God only know love and goodness because of God, only some of us don’t want to believe that since we don’t believe in God. In a nutshell you seem to be saying that everything good in the world is because of exposure to God (even for people that don’t believe in God), not because of anything that people themselves do. That God is around us and influencing us even if we don’t want it or believe in Him. Correct?

  • #282716

    adiffer
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    @violarose 113880 wrote:

    I just have to speak up for what I believe in . Every believer might want to do that, it just helps clear ones soul when people are fighting over it.

    I have a big appreciative smile on my face right now if that helps you know what I’m thinking. 8)

    Doclaguna might be fighting, but I’m not.
    A>E and I have a multi-year conversation going on about this topic and it’s related parts.
    It dates to my early days at EGO and works through his various screen names and even on his own forum if my fuzzy memory serves me correctly.
    I’m deeply grateful he is brave enough to continue with his side of it. I’ve learned a lot and even moved a bit in his direction.

  • #282717

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113878 wrote:

    Being used to being wrong is a far cry from knowing what you say is wrong but saying it anyway because it makes you feel superior.

    True Dat.

    It takes courage to stop stroking one’s own ego. The stroking feels so good and some fear no one else will do it. Loneliness is Hell.

  • #282807

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113869 wrote:

    Thats why I said it was a rhetorical question. Naturally a trained physician would investigate. That was my point. Making assessments on others based on your feelings rather than a credible examination is a selfish and fruitless activity unless one doesn’t mind being wrong to suit their feelings.

    Sounds like when you decided Jenner is mentally ill. You have no training to decide this, you haven’t examined her or other transgendered people, and yet you assessed her and labeled her, and others like her, as mentally ill. Because you can’t understand, or don’t care to understand, how she came to be.

  • #282718

    adiffer
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    I suspect he would care to understand, but already thinks he does.
    I suspect he is relying upon what he believes to be critical thinking from people he trusts, but isn’t aware of how much their feelings drive their rationalizations.

    It IS difficult to get free of the old memes.

  • #282769

    doclaguna
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    When I said Man made God, I have the history of the world to back up my position. Time and again primitive man has come up with supernatural explanations to explain to what they couldn’t scientifically explain at that point. Thunder? Obviously it’s Thor’s hammer. The Sun? Apollo’s chariot riding through the sky. As science explained more and more, all these pantheistic religions fell by the waste side. It’s silly to continue to use the supernatural to explain something that can be scientifically explained.
    That leads us to more esoteric questions. What’s our purpose in life? What happens when we die? And sure enough, man created new Gods to explain these issues. As comforting a though the afterlife is, there is no empiric evidence of an afterlife. So when someone wants to own the “rational” side of an argument and at the same time professes to believe that someone dead three days came back to life, you see my skepticism. If I started a story about my cousin Joshua who was dead at the morgue for 3 days from a car accident and then on the 3rd day got up and was fine and dandy, you guys would have me institutionalized.
    There are some beautiful tenets in Christianity as a philosophy, including the scripture quote I posted above. Unfortunately I see less and less and less of the social justice attributed to Christ in the bible. Instead I see so called men of the cloth accumulating wealth in their mega-churches. I see so called Christians side with the powerful and oppressive, instead of the weak and oppressed. So please, spare me this idea that man does not have self capacity for good and evil. As I states before its a huge cop out to think otherwise. When you externalize good to God, you get to outsource evil as well. Therefore you never have to be accountable for your own actions, good or bad.

  • #282669

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 113886 wrote:

    Sounds like when you decided Jenner is mentally ill. You have no training to decide this, you haven’t examined her or other transgendered people, and yet you assessed her and labeled her, and others like her, as mentally ill. Because you can’t understand, or don’t care to understand, how she came to be.

    Do we know Jenner isn’t mentally ill? Being transgender doesn’t exclude him from being mentally ill. I think a lot of people thought he was until recently. Who’s to say he still isn’t? If not, what is it based on?

  • #282808

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 113894 wrote:

    Do we know Jenner isn’t mentally ill? Being transgender doesn’t exclude him from being mentally ill. I think a lot of people thought he was until recently. Who’s to say he still isn’t? If not, what is it based on?

    Being transgendered doesn’t make him mentally him.
    This was post #2 in the thread, his first post- “Celebrating mental illness and demanding that we accept it as normal healthy behavior is awful thing.”

    The meaning is pretty clear.

  • #282770

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 113894 wrote:

    Do we know Jenner isn’t mentally ill? Being transgender doesn’t exclude him from being mentally ill. I think a lot of people thought he was until recently. Who’s to say he still isn’t? If not, what is it based on?

    He may or may not be mentally ill. The problem most of us had was with the obvious implication that anyone transgender is by definition mentally ill.

  • #282670

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 113900 wrote:

    Being transgendered doesn’t make him mentally him.
    This was post #2 in the thread, his first post- “Celebrating mental illness and demanding that we accept it as normal healthy behavior is awful thing.”

    The meaning is pretty clear.

    Did you actually read what I said? So he can’t be mentally ill because he’s transgender?

  • #282671

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 113903 wrote:

    He may or may not be mentally ill. The problem most of us had was with the obvious implication that anyone transgender is by definition mentally ill.

    I don’t think that’s true that they are by definition mentally ill.

  • #282809

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 113905 wrote:

    Did you actually read what I said? So he can’t be mentally ill because he’s transgender?

    SHe may or may not be mentally ill- but that has nothing to do within being transgendered. A>E’s post was clear that he said that jenner’s coming out as transgendered was actually mental illness and we are a society should not be celebrating it.

  • #282810

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 113906 wrote:

    I don’t think that’s true that they are by definition mentally ill.

    Post #2 disagrees with this. That was my point.

  • #282771

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 113906 wrote:

    I don’t think that’s true that they are by definition mentally ill.

    I didn’t think you thought that either… But the unfunny comic thinks that…

  • #282719

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113905 wrote:

    So he can’t be mentally ill because he’s transgender?

    You are correct. Jenner might be. We don’t have enough information to guess well, let alone diagnose properly.
    The stuff I’ve seen suggesting Jenner might be was pop psychology stuff based on the impression of depression.

    Since that is only tangentially related to A>E’s original comment… and we don’t have enough info to do more than speculate… I don’t see the value in bringing it into the discussion. A>E was making a broader, more universal statement and that’s what has provoked the ‘apply the chlorine’ comments.

    Personally, while I find A>E’s position to be way out-dated and harmful to people in need of love, I think he has managed his side of this discussion in a well-mannered way. We don’t have to agree with him nor tolerate his position, but I note he isn’t frothing at the mouth here. No one is. 8)

  • #282828

    tomwaltman
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    @violarose 113880 wrote:

    I just have to speak up for what I believe in . Every believer might want to do that, it just helps clear ones soul when people are fighting over it.

    Nobody is fighting over my soul. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth… No one can change that except me. And no one can define my relationship with God except me. I am good with my belief, and I am comfortable with myself as a practicing Catholic. The fact that I am not bothered by gay marriage or Ms. Jenner’s lifestyle choices have very little to do with my religious beliefs beyond my central belief that Jesus called us to love our neighbors, and to love those most that need us the most. That is lost on many who take a very narcissistic view of Christianity.

  • #282672

    EGL Admin
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    I know Al has mentioned he has a family member going through something like what Jenner is doing. Does anyone else know someone they are friends with or maybe a family member? Curious as to how you reacted or would react. To be honest I don’t know how I would react. I think it would be much more awkward than if a person is gay. My niece is gay, we have a lot of clients who are gay and it was never awkward at all. I was thinking what if one of my nephews or a golfing buddy was transgender, how would I react? I really don’t know. It would be really awkward. I think as a guy that would be difficult. If you’re a guy and you’re out somewhere and if you see a guy dressed as a woman. I’ll be honest, that’s not something most guys want to see. If that person comes up to you and acts like they want to get to know you, 99% of the guys are going to be repulsed and a lot will be pissed off. If you didn’t realize it was a guy and actually were interested and later found out it was, you would be super mad. You can have fake breasts, makeup and cut off your penis, but to a guy, that is still a guy. It’s not a woman. Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is still a guy, not a woman. He was born a man. That’s his choice to do what he wants to do with his life, and I wouldn’t try and stop him. It’s none of my business. I would hate to be a guy who met someone like that and later found out it was a guy. I don’t know if anyone else will actually be honest about it, but I don’t know any guy who would not be pissed off if they met someone acting like a woman that was actually a guy. Jenner is not going to have that happen likely because he said he still likes women. When we were in Palm Springs last month, some of the guys I golfed with went to a bar to go dancing and drink. I said no thanks, I’ll stay at the hotel. They saw someone there who they all swear was a guy, dressed like a woman, but looked like they were pregnant. I asked if it was a beer belly and they said no it looked like it was pregnant and the person was drunk too.

  • #282772

    doclaguna
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    Is this theoretical family member a productive member of society or a leech? That’s way more important to me than gender ID.

  • #282673

    EGL Admin
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    On a non personal basis I agree. By that I mean if you’re taking about strangers. Curious how people would deal with it if it was a friend.

  • #282773

    doclaguna
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    I worked in a clinic in West Hollywood one summer in med school. I learned early on gay/straight/transgender people have the same dreams and problems. To me behaviors, not preferences are a problem. I’m more concerned by a slutty heterosexual friend than a monogamous gay friend.

  • #282829

    tomwaltman
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    Agreed DL. Behavior matters. Preference doesn’t bother me if behavior is solid.

  • #282720

    adiffer
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    My family member is an in-law related through a second marriage, so they aren’t real close. I knew ‘her’ as a kid and then she grew up and realized the conflict. Now he is 18 and technically an adult, but with respect to the productive member of society measure, he isn’t. He’s actually quite a jerk, but I brush some of that off to the divorce, his biological mother, and my brother-in-law. I like my brother-in-law, but he doesn’t know how to raise kids. Sigh.

    The next closest encounter I’ve had with a transgendered person was with one of the more active people in the charitable organization I used to actively support and later run. She was obviously not always a she in the hormonal sense and it caused a lot of difficulty for her in establishing even professional relationships. For many the discomfort level was too high and they couldn’t relate to her on any level. It was quite a shame since she was dedicated to the cause. I never quite overcame my discomfort either, but from her I learned to face it and after many years now, I’ve learned to cope. The trick to coping is to recognize the problem lies not with her, but with me and I can address that. The world isn’t as simple as I once thought it was and experience is the path to tolerance. By the time I learned of my in-law I barely reacted.

    Learning to live with our fellow humans as they are is an act of tolerance.
    Learning who they are as they are is an act of love.
    If you can’t manage the later, start with the former and give yourself time.

  • #282674

    EGL Admin
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    I was thinking about this topic last night when I went to bed. In my case, I was thinking, what would I do if one of my golfing buddies did this? It’s impossible to know for sure. Since we all joke around all the time, nothing is untouchable, divorce, separation, job loss, my first reaction would be WTF are you doing? If he was going to go through with it and dress up as a woman, I really don’t know what I would do. Friend or family or someone you have to be around for work or something else, then you deal with it. I think it would be really uncomfortable at first.

    As far as dealing with it with a stranger, I would probably do my best to avoid the situation.

    I think for me it would be easier dealing with a female wanting to be a man than visa versa.

  • #282721

    adiffer
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    Your discomfort is biological, so don’t fret it too much if you find one of your friends coming out.
    It CAN be overcome to some degree if you care enough about your friend.

    Ultimately the problem lies with the fact that your internal copy of your friend doesn’t have the same gender as the external copy. The conflict is confusing because your ability to predict them becomes deeply suspect. You worked hard at getting to know them, so how could this have been missed? You’ll begin to question everything about them including things that probably haven’t changed. For example, their favorite foods and humor preferences are probably the same. Their pet peeves are probably the same. Many of the things you think you know are probably still accurate. Once you realize that at a deep level, the gender adjustment to your internal copy becomes easier.

    It’s actually easier with strangers. The fact that they don’t fit neatly into the two boxes we think are all that is necessary for genders will be uncomfortable, but that’s mostly our fault for believing in such a simplistic explanation of gender. Biology suggests it’s more of a continuum. With strangers, though, you don’t have to deal with the conflict created by an incorrect internal copy of the other person. You just have to address your stereotypes for gender.

  • #282884

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113882 wrote:

    “No one is presuming to tell you not to believe in God, but if you try to tell me us horrible non-believers cannot be ethical or experience love in the way believers do, I will challenge that thought.” (DocL)

    A>E “God is the only source of love, kindness, morality or anything good. If any human displays these qualities at any point within their lives it is because of exposure to God’s presence in the world. Man is incapable of good without God. Man is depraved. “

    Your point seems to be that the only reason love exists, or that we feel love, is because of God. That even those of us that don’t believe in God only know love and goodness because of God, only some of us don’t want to believe that since we don’t believe in God. In a nutshell you seem to be saying that everything good in the world is because of exposure to God (even for people that don’t believe in God), not because of anything that people themselves do. That God is around us and influencing us even if we don’t want it or believe in Him. Correct?

    Yes newmom, that is what I am saying.

  • #282675

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 113882 wrote:

    “No one is presuming to tell you not to believe in God, but if you try to tell me us horrible non-believers cannot be ethical or experience love in the way believers do, I will challenge that thought.” (DocL)

    A>E “God is the only source of love, kindness, morality or anything good. If any human displays these qualities at any point within their lives it is because of exposure to God’s presence in the world. Man is incapable of good without God. Man is depraved. “

    Your point seems to be that the only reason love exists, or that we feel love, is because of God. That even those of us that don’t believe in God only know love and goodness because of God, only some of us don’t want to believe that since we don’t believe in God. In a nutshell you seem to be saying that everything good in the world is because of exposure to God (even for people that don’t believe in God), not because of anything that people themselves do. That God is around us and influencing us even if we don’t want it or believe in Him. Correct?

    I would agree with part of that as well. I don’t think it means that if you don’t believe in God that you can’t know love or do good, but that maybe what you know is good or love comes from God even if you don’t believe in it. It’s all around you. How did you know what good was or how to act good? Maybe it’s because of enough of the community and world around you influenced you to act that way? Who knows?

  • #282885

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113891 wrote:

    There are some beautiful tenets in Christianity as a philosophy, including the scripture quote I posted above. Unfortunately I see less and less and less of the social justice attributed to Christ in the bible. Instead I see so called men of the cloth accumulating wealth in their mega-churches. I see so called Christians side with the powerful and oppressive, instead of the weak and oppressed. So please, spare me this idea that man does not have self capacity for good and evil. As I states before its a huge cop out to think otherwise. When you externalize good to God, you get to outsource evil as well. Therefore you never have to be accountable for your own actions, good or bad.

    The scripture you quoted doesn’t mean what you think it means, but with that aside, social justice is a scam. Jesus didn’t preach social justice, ever. As for the mega churches, well I tend to agree with you on the tendency for money and fame to be at the root of these institutions rather than doing the work of Jesus here on earth. Cant say all are that way but some sure are.

    “When you externalize good to God, you get to outsource evil as well.” Not the way I see it. Darkness is the absence of light, it isn’t a thing. There is no substance to darkness, it is the natural state.

    I am always accountable for my thoughts, words and actions. This is the underlying theme in The Road To Selfdom.

    BTW I never said that all transgenders were mentally ill, I suggested that Jenner is mentally ill. All the other added comments came from the “outraged” who demand that everyone sees the world in a similar light. Considering someone mentally ill isn’t hate, in fact I know many who suffer with depression, and one with psychosomatic tendencies and narcissistic tendencies, this doesn’t preclude me from loving them, it just makes me do it with caution.

  • #282886

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113886 wrote:

    Sounds like when you decided Jenner is mentally ill. You have no training to decide this, you haven’t examined her or other transgendered people, and yet you assessed her and labeled her, and others like her, as mentally ill. Because you can’t understand, or don’t care to understand, how she came to be.

    Good point. I have no training to decide this and I may be wrong. It is odd though that so many automatically celebrate this decisions regardless of the lives the Jenner is affecting without considering that there might be something deeply disturbing driving this. Funny that no one suggested that adiffer overstepped his boundaries for suggesting my worldview with regard to emotion based thinking was due to some sort of repression to cover a past tragedy. I accept his opinion as being his, regardless of accuracy with no outrage on my part and he is talking about me. He calls my faith a mental illness and nobody complains. Fine, I can deal with his opinion, it’s his to own. But I say something about Jenner and…well you see what happens.

    Don’t you think people are just a little to quick to outrage when their feelings get challenged?

  • #282887

    ActionEmotion
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    @tomwaltman 113912 wrote:

    Nobody is fighting over my soul. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth… No one can change that except me. And no one can define my relationship with God except me. I am good with my belief, and I am comfortable with myself as a practicing Catholic. The fact that I am not bothered by gay marriage or Ms. Jenner’s lifestyle choices have very little to do with my religious beliefs beyond my central belief that Jesus called us to love our neighbors, and to love those most that need us the most. That is lost on many who take a very narcissistic view of Christianity.

    So is loving your neighbor accepting anything they do as good for them and society or is it more like loving them in spite of how they act but staying very clear on the things that scripture calls sin? I certainly hope that you aren’t suggesting that I take a narcissistic view of Christianity because if that is what you are suggesting, you need to read my book.

  • #282676

    EGL Admin
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    Maybe I missed it somewhere. I know being a gay is not a mental illness. Was there a study about transgender people that said it’s not a mental illness? Are all people who dress up as the other sex, transgender? Or are some just playing dress up and if they are is that not maybe some type of mental illness possibly? Or is that just not even on the table for discussion? Up until recently a lot of people thought Jenner was mentally ill because of his behavior. I think the negative backlash comes from having the media and people celebrate what he did like it’s something great and then people call him a hero. He is definitely not a hero.

  • #282722

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 113950 wrote:

    Don’t you think people are just a little to quick to outrage when their feelings get challenged?

    That’s probably because my opinion of your situation has never been part of a majority position capable of limiting social options through government action.

    You are right to point out the connection between my opinion of you and your opinion of Jenner. I see the analogy.

  • #282723

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113954 wrote:

    Maybe I missed it somewhere. I know being a gay is not a mental illness. Was there a study about transgender people that said it’s not a mental illness?

    You might want to do a quick review of the history of the DSM.
    The social forces involved in the edits demonstrate how political this all is, so don’t expect anything objective in what you read.

  • #282811

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113944 wrote:

    Yes newmom, that is what I am saying.

    Not a surprise, but I couldn’t disagree with this more.

    I do not believe that God is responsible for all the goodness in this world. I also don’t believe God is responsible for the bad in this world. (Not a surprise since I don’t believe in any god).

    I believe in what DocL said earlier, that man created gods to explain things in this world that needed answering for them-things like weather, natural disasters, death. Things they could not control, but (especially in the times of early man) they hoped they could influence.

    Did morals exist before Jesus? Yes, of course they did. How many of the ideas represented in The Bible existed long before Jesus? Communities-even hunter/gatherer societies-had their own organization and ideas about how to form societies. There were norms that were accepted and behaviors that weren’t. My morals exist because of my view of how to treat people, my sense of right from wrong. Some of these things run contrary of how I was brought up in the church. It’s my thinking. IMO, for you or anyone else to claim that positive nature of my sense of morals-most likely those that are similar to those in Christianity-comes from God whether I know it or want to believe it is an absolute cop out. You are taking away my free will and critical thinking and attributing my thinking and decision making to a being that I don’t believe in, because it makes you feel better about your world. In your world, there is but the one Christian God. In my world, I have no problem with people seeking peace and understanding from a concept (God) that they choose to believe in to help them make sense of or understand their world, no matter what God it is they choose to believe in. Also, I find it insulting that you would disrespect other religions by essentially minimizing the beliefs that other religions have about their god/gods, because they aren’t worshiping the same god you worship.
    Just as sure and confident you are in your opinion (I understand that you don’t think if it as an opinion but rather a fact) I am confident in my opinion.
    I do not believe that man, by nature is depraved. I do not believe that all people are good, or all people are bad and God saves them. People make choices. People make decisions. They are they alone are responsible for the good and the bad.

  • #282812

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 113950 wrote:

    Good point. I have no training to decide this and I may be wrong. It is odd though that so many automatically celebrate this decisions regardless of the lives the Jenner is affecting without considering that there might be something deeply disturbing driving this. Funny that no one suggested that adiffer overstepped his boundaries for suggesting my worldview with regard to emotion based thinking was due to some sort of repression to cover a past tragedy. I accept his opinion as being his, regardless of accuracy with no outrage on my part and he is talking about me. He calls my faith a mental illness and nobody complains. Fine, I can deal with his opinion, it’s his to own. But I say something about Jenner and…well you see what happens.

    Don’t you think people are just a little to quick to outrage when their feelings get challenged?

    Do you know the steps that doctors require-physically and psychologically -people to go through before beginning taking things like hormones to change a gender? They don’t just get to go to their doc and request some hormones. They are typically referred to specialists who make people undergo intensive counseling and testing. They want to make sure people understand what they are doing, aren’t mentally ill, undergoing a physical problem masquerading as something else….it’s not “Ok. Here you go. See you next year for your next check-up.”

    And I don’t believe people are celebrating Jenner becoming a woman. Rather, I think people are celebrating the courage she has in coming out with this and opening herself up to the scrutiny and comments that have been said. To being brave enough to do this despite what the future holds. That despite all this (that she knew was coming) she still is continuing forward.
    As for the affect this will have on Jenner’s family-how do you know that Jenner didn’t think for a long time about that, and was so unhappy and miserable having to pretend to be something that felt so unnatural to her that she felt she had no choice? Why do you think it was an easy decision for her?

  • #282813

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 113954 wrote:

    Maybe I missed it somewhere. I know being a gay is not a mental illness. Was there a study about transgender people that said it’s not a mental illness? Are all people who dress up as the other sex, transgender? Or are some just playing dress up and if they are is that not maybe some type of mental illness possibly? Or is that just not even on the table for discussion? Up until recently a lot of people thought Jenner was mentally ill because of his behavior. I think the negative backlash comes from having the media and people celebrate what he did like it’s something great and then people call him a hero. He is definitely not a hero.

    I don’t think he’s a hero either. I think that word has been tossed around and applied to many people that don’t deserve it.
    What I wonder is if the stress from dealing with this issue for his entire life is possibly responsible for some of the strange behaviors that he has exhibited in the past that caused people to believe s/he was mentally ill all this time. I don’t know, but I think dealing with those kinds of things could really mess a person up.

  • #282904

    plasmadrive
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    Chlorine… where did I put that chlorine.. damn..

  • #282677

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 113962 wrote:

    I don’t think he’s a hero either. I think that word has been tossed around and applied to many people that don’t deserve it.
    What I wonder is if the stress from dealing with this issue for his entire life is possibly responsible for some of the strange behaviors that he has exhibited in the past that caused people to believe s/he was mentally ill all this time. I don’t know, but I think dealing with those kinds of things could really mess a person up.

    I agree. Dealing with all that would have to take a toll on your mental health.

  • #282888

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113960 wrote:

    Also, I find it insulting that you would disrespect other religions by essentially minimizing the beliefs that other religions have about their god/gods, because they aren’t worshiping the same god you worship.

    Wait…you’re insulted because my beliefs reject the beliefs of others yet rejecting my beliefs AND their beliefs is not somehow insulting to you? Sounds like you haven’t thought this through. If you are insulted, that’s on you. I haven’t said anything insulting to you at all.

    You don’t believe in God, I’m not surprised, offended, upset or insulted. Your choice.

    Did morality exist before Jesus walked the earth, yes, of course. I never claimed anything different. What I am saying is that God, the Father, the creator of all is the creator of morality and has been around for ever.

  • #282814

    newmom
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    I don’t tell other people their belief in God is wrong-because, to me, it is a personal choice. I understand why other people would and could feel differently than I do. I also don’t think my belief is superior to anyone else’s. I don’t think my belief about God is the only “right” one (it is the right one FOR ME, just as yours is the right one for you, and being Jewish is the right one for someone else) and I don’t try and find things in other’s beliefs that would enforce my beliefs, especially at the expense of theirs (such as your attempts to point to God as the cause as every single good thing that happens in the history of the universe).

  • #282830

    tomwaltman
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    @Action>Emotion 113951 wrote:

    So is loving your neighbor accepting anything they do as good for them and society or is it more like loving them in spite of how they act but staying very clear on the things that scripture calls sin? I certainly hope that you aren’t suggesting that I take a narcissistic view of Christianity because if that is what you are suggesting, you need to read my book.

    I will love them in spite of their actions, and keep to myself what I see as sin. God will judge them, not me. At least not me outside of my own mind.

    I do not know you well enough to know if your views are totally narcissistic. I know you have a very complex view of Christianity, and it is beyond my desire to understand how you have developed that view. We all have our approaches to faith. I respect that in most people, as I do for you. Those that clearly use faith to enrich themselves are not Christian in my view. They are simply opportunists.

  • #282774

    doclaguna
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    And I’m saying I just say a leprechaun riding a unicorn. We have about the same evidence to our claims.

  • #282724

    adiffer
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    @plasmadrive 113967 wrote:

    Chlorine… where did I put that chlorine.. damn..

    aww…

    It’s a civil discussion.
    That makes it a pretty good swimming hole, I think.

  • #282889

    ActionEmotion
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    @tomwaltman 113983 wrote:

    I will love them in spite of their actions, and keep to myself what I see as sin. God will judge them, not me. At least not me outside of my own mind.

    You are judging their actions though aren’t you? Sin is sin. Yes of course love them in spite of their actions but sin is still sin. If it’s in your mind you might as well be saying it out loud. For me, I reserve talking to individuals about their sin to other believers. I have no place telling an unbeliever that he/she is sinning. But it is my duty as a believer to speak in love to another believer about sin that they engage in. Its not fun, in fact its pretty awkward since we are opening the door to be called on our own shortcomings but, that’s the program.

  • #282678

    EGL Admin
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    I think we all make judgements, even if it’s just in our minds. Anyone who says they don’t isn’t being honest.

  • #282890

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 113981 wrote:

    I don’t tell other people their belief in God is wrong

    Me either.

    @newmom 113981 wrote:

    I understand why other people would and could feel differently than I do.

    Me too.

    @newmom 113981 wrote:

    I also don’t think my belief is superior to anyone else’s.

    Me either.

    @newmom 113981 wrote:

    I don’t think my belief about God is the only “right” one (it is the right one FOR ME, just as yours is the right one for you, and being Jewish is the right one for someone else)

    I believe that God the Father is the only God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also part of that God and no other gods (and there are many) are to come before Him. That isn’t me being obstinate or narrow minded, it is a command from God. It is the very first commandment. Oh and 1 Timothy 2:5

    @newmom 113981 wrote:

    and I don’t try and find things in other’s beliefs that would enforce my beliefs, especially at the expense of theirs

    Me either.

    @newmom 113981 wrote:

    (such as your attempts to point to God as the cause as every single good thing that happens in the history of the universe).

    James 1:17
    1 John 4:16

    Everything I believe is derived from scripture. I am not making it up to manipulate conversations or put anyone down. This is Christianity. Your assessment of who I am or what I believe is colored by your lack of knowledge in the Word of God, lack of knowing who I am as a human being (not all that important-just saying, if you knew me you’d have a different opinion) and by your lack of belief in God. This is the truth.

  • #282891

    ActionEmotion
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    @EGL Admin 114003 wrote:

    I think we all make judgements, even if it’s just in our minds. Anyone who says they don’t isn’t being honest.

    Only a fool doesn’t make judgments. We are called as Christians to judge the actions of others daily. We are not however to judge the worth of another human or the content/worth/ultimate destination of their soul.

  • #282815

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 114007 wrote:

    Me either.

    Me too.

    Me either.

    I believe that God the Father is the only God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also part of that God and no other gods (and there are many) are to come before Him. That isn’t me being obstinate or narrow minded, it is a command from God. It is the very first commandment. Oh and 1 Timothy 2:5

    Me either.

    James 1:17
    1 John 4:16

    Everything I believe is derived from scripture. I am not making it up to manipulate conversations or put anyone down. This is Christianity. Your assessment of who I am or what I believe is colored by your lack of knowledge in the Word of God, lack of knowing who I am as a human being (not all that important-just saying, if you knew me you’d have a different opinion) and by your lack of belief in God. This is the truth.

    No. You want to believe that but the reality is my assessment is based on what you write here. Look at what you posted. Especially post 207. I don’t think you are making anything up but I believe you are so arrogant you refuse to see that other religions and people who don’t believe in God got where they are by the same critical thought as you got where you are with Christianity.

  • #282892

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 114013 wrote:

    No. You want to believe that but the reality is my assessment is based on what you write here. Look at what you posted. Especially post 207. I don’t think you are making anything up but I believe you are so arrogant you refuse to see that other religions and people who don’t believe in God got where they are by the same critical thought as you got where you are with Christianity.

    newmom, your assessment is based on what you invented in your head. I’m not arrogant, far from it in fact. You want to make me out to be something of your own invention, have a good time. Like I said to someone else, if it makes you happy so that you can feel superior, have at it. But until you challenge me with something real, something substantial with regard to my words or character I’m going to push it aside as nonsense.

  • #282816

    newmom
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    Your own posts here tell the story. It’s clear. Never once did I put words in your mouth or twist what you said. I asked for claifixicafion of what you meant, and made sure I was understanding your posts.

  • #282893

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 114024 wrote:

    Your own posts here tell the story. It’s clear. Never once did I put words in your mouth or twist what you said. I asked for claifixicafion of what you meant, and made sure I was understanding your posts.

    It’s clear that I am arrogant? That kind of clashes with my assertion that humanity is depraved don’t you think? How can a person who recognizes his own depravity with regard to his species consider themselves better than someone else? You may have read my words but you only saw what you wanted to see. What you are experiencing most likely, I don’t know you well enough to be sure, is a case of predetermined bias with regard to the person who you believe that I am and then reading every comment I make as if it were coming from that person.

    I know it is hard to shake off the confidence that you have built around this fictional character because he was created by your feelings. What we feel is our own invention and when we base decisions on those feelings it gives us a sense of power, like a creator. I feel it, therefore it is. Changing that is something most people prefer not to do because it calls into question all the emotion based decisions that they have made in their lives. It is more an affront to the individual than the idea that they created.

    I am not affected in any way by your mis-characterization. You can do with some others have done and treat me as if I am a hateful, mean spirited individual who would like to force others to change who they are based upon my faith. It isn’t real so I am not bothered by it. Understand this, your accusations and comments with regard to my character harm you much more than they could ever harm me. They embody the very traits which you claim to assail with regard to my character. Eventually that is not going to play to your benefit.

  • #282817

    newmom
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    Your arrogance of refusing to accept that people who believe in and worship a different god than you do, or don’t believe in any god, are just as “right” as you are to believe in your god. Your arrogance of refusing to believe that things that exist outside the scope of acceptance to Christianity are not mental illness or depravity. Your arrogance in claiming God is responsible for everything I have in my life. Your arrogance in deciding these things without any knowledge, training, or education about the issues, then telling everyone else they are not as educated or enlightened as you are (such as your comments about how we view art).

  • #282894

    ActionEmotion
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    OK newmom, I hope that works for you.

  • #282775

    doclaguna
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    He’s not arrogant, he’s a zealot, there’s a difference. I’m arrogant. 😉

  • #282725

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 114025 wrote:

    It’s clear that I am arrogant? That kind of clashes with my assertion that humanity is depraved don’t you think?

    Not really. It’s called the Pretense of Knowledge. I capitalize ‘knowledge’ in order to imply ‘truth’ that can’t be challenged. Humanity exists in this world which makes your pretense vulnerable to the methods of science and other forms of critical analysis. I suspect, though, that your definition for ‘depraved’ is circular making your pretense nonfalsifiable.

    Quote:
    I know it is hard to shake off the confidence that you have built around this fictional character because he was created by your feelings. What we feel is our own invention and when we base decisions on those feelings it gives us a sense of power, like a creator. I feel it, therefore it is. Changing that is something most people prefer not to do because it calls into question all the emotion based decisions that they have made in their lives. It is more an affront to the individual than the idea that they created.

    I am not affected in any way by your mis-characterization. You can do with some others have done and treat me as if I am a hateful, mean spirited individual who would like to force others to change who they are based upon my faith. It isn’t real so I am not bothered by it. Understand this, your accusations and comments with regard to my character harm you much more than they could ever harm me. They embody the very traits which you claim to assail with regard to my character. Eventually that is not going to play to your benefit.

    Neat. You’ve obviously thought a lot about this. Your book should be an interesting read in where this particular path leads. I’ll be curious to see which philosophies you’ve decided to keep or mash-up. I can see some of what you’ve rejected already. Should be fun.

  • #282726

    adiffer
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    @doclaguna 114040 wrote:

    He’s not arrogant, he’s a zealot, there’s a difference. I’m arrogant. 😉

    Zealot? I think the better word is Chosen.
    Zealots tend to be more coercive in their intolerance.
    His intolerance mostly stops at the boundaries of his person.

  • #282781

    joy
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    No it doesn’t, not really. Making mental illness comments like he threw out there spreads poison. The “who, me?” act is tiresome.

  • #282727

    adiffer
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    The poison was already out there. He’s actually more of a victim of that poisoning than anything else.

    It’s contagious, though, so it’s more of a meme poison.
    When you all respond to contain the damage, I’m supportive.
    When you react to skewer him for suffering this meme, I think you go too far. You re-enforce another harmful meme he suffers.

  • #282895

    ActionEmotion
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    @joy 114059 wrote:

    No it doesn’t, not really. Making mental illness comments like he threw out there spreads poison. The “who, me?” act is tiresome.

    It isn’t poison. It’s a different view than you have. Diversity only works when all views are OK. You see, this acceptance thing pushed by the left is a lie. You don’t want to accept all people’s views, you want to force your views on others and blame the others for doing exactly what you are doing. You see, I’m not harassing, name calling, attacking, threatening anyone. The majority of people disagreeing with me here are enraged, “How dare anyone voice an idea that was embraced by mainstream science only a short time ago. That’s gotta be hate.” No, you are the ones making the hateful judgments, from comparisons to murderers to ridiculing faith to wishing physical harm and one even threatening physical harm. But all of that is ignored because you embrace the hate the hater conundrum. You decide who is hateful which gives you permission to hate them. Lots of critical thought avoided in that move, let me tell you.

    On the other hand, I wished no harm on Jenner or those who support him, never suggested he be prohibited from living as he chooses or creating law to govern his egocentric behavior. In fact I said I hope it doesn’t lead to suicide or depression. I worry for his kids, his grand kids. That’s got to be a confusing thing to deal with.

    But all of that gets over looked because some of you despise the idea of another human not seeing the world the way you do so much that it throws you into a vindictive state. Hey, if that works for you, cool. But don’t think for a second that I respect your choice to react this way because it is completely contradictory to what you claim to believe and claim to support.

    The who me act?, that’s just another sign that you haven’t thought any of this through and find it easier to go all “us vs them” in discussions that are important to you.

  • #282728

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 114145 wrote:

    It isn’t poison. It’s a different view than you have. Diversity only works when all views are OK. You see, this acceptance thing pushed by the left is a lie. You don’t want to accept all people’s views, you want to force your views on others and blame the others for doing exactly what you are doing. You see, I’m not harassing, name calling, attacking, threatening anyone. The majority of people disagreeing with me here are enraged, “How dare anyone voice an idea that was embraced by mainstream science only a short time ago. That’s gotta be hate.” No, you are the ones making the hateful judgments, from comparisons to murderers to ridiculing faith to wishing physical harm and one even threatening physical harm. But all of that is ignored because you embrace the hate the hater conundrum. You decide who is hateful which gives you permission to hate them. Lots of critical thought avoided in that move, let me tell you.

    Allow me to pick at a nit.

    A big part of why the science position changed is that upon closer examination, it wasn’t really science that took the old position. It was scientists who did. It is not atypical for scientists to make assumptions they haven’t properly checked by questioning Creation. That’s what happened here. Once those assumptions started to get questioned, the edifice crumbled and a lot of teeth gnashing began.

    I don’t agree with your assessment of some of the others here, but I can see how you would see it the way you do.

  • #282782

    joy
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    Nope.

    It is so interesting to read what you write because it is like opposite world. Everything you wrote about me/us above so obviously applies to you. It is disconcerting, the lack of self awareness, and the irony is too thick for words.

  • #282896

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 114057 wrote:

    Zealot? I think the better word is Chosen.
    Zealots tend to be more coercive in their intolerance.
    His intolerance mostly stops at the boundaries of his person.

    Intolerance is a misused word in this kind of discussion. Tolerance is easy. If I were intolerant I would be making efforts to stop those who act in a way which opposes my world view from doing what they are doing and believing what they are believing. I would insult them, ridicule them, do everything in my power to crush them and their concrete skulls for not seeing things my way. I would not tolerate it.

    But I am tolerant, because I am not interested in pushing my faith and my beliefs upon others who have no interest in them. I am not trying to stop the world from being what it is.

    An appropriate word is acceptance. I am not accepting of certain words, thoughts and actions as being good for individuals or society. I have not been convinced that the arguments used to promote these words thoughts and behaviors have been effective or even truthful and suspect that political correctness has so numbed the mind of many that most are feeling their way through the decisions rather than applying critical thought. This thread is a great example of that.

    What most of you have missed is the absurdity of your position, not the jenner/transgender thing, the position that anyone who believes in God (which only came into the discussion because others felt the need to ridicule) and doesn’t embrace this particular case as brave and good for him is filled with hate and equivalent to a murderer. Don’t you, can’t you see the absurdity in all of that over emotionalized hyperbole? If not, what a waste of time this has been.

  • #282729

    adiffer
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    Okay. I’m inclined to agree with you regarding the term shift. Acceptance it is.

    Faith came into this discussion because we all know it is a central part of your life. Avoiding that part of you would be disingenuous of us. Can you see that?

    We honestly DO see the old stance with respect to homosexuality and the transgendered as hateful. The fact that many people who still defend the old versions of the DSM are people of faith is what entangles the positions. Obviously, we should be cautious about recognizing the correlation as causation, but it is important to recognize that many of us are informed by people who have passed through crises of faith. When they tell us it is causation, we have to pay attention.

    Personally, I think the argument for causation is weak. I think it is far more likely that the oldest faiths simply adopted the moral codes of their communities as their membership grew. I’m an atheist, though, so I’m already inclined to think the morality your God expects of you is what your ancestors brought to the faith in the first place. Your faith, therefore, acts as an astoundingly good defensive bulwark against change. Your morality is supposed to be something metaphysical and external to you, therefore it isn’t vulnerable to arguments based on evidence. There is no better defense against falsification efforts. The morality you’ve adopted probably comes from sound medical needs regarding the spread of disease and assuring the needs of children so they survive to have children of their own. I doubt your ancestors thought in those terms, though, so there is nothing causal about this.

    Therefore, I can’t accuse you of being a hater, but I can accuse you of clinging to a position that harms people.
    Your lack of acceptance of them as they are is not loving. It IS tolerance, but you can and should do better.

  • #282897

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 114169 wrote:

    Your lack of acceptance of them as they are is not loving. It IS tolerance, but you can and should do better.

    OK let’s pick this apart then.

    My faith which is the source of my morality tells me that I must adhere to a certain standard with regard to my words thoughts and actions. None can completely succeed at this which is why Jesus etc etc. Man sins, Jesus forgives.

    My lack of acceptance is not of them as a human but of some of their words thoughts and actions. This is a key point. No man is without sin, therefore not accepting a person because they sin is an abomination. I’m sure common ground could be found somewhere in everyone with whom I disagree on a number of topics. This is the human condition. The reason I respect you is because you seek common ground with me regardless of your lack of acceptance of my faith. This is the place where true diversity thrives.

    So to say I am not accepting “them” and therefore not loving is a mis-characterization. Let me give you an example. My best friend is Asatru, that is his faith. I agree with him on many aspects where our faith is similar in the way we treat others, the planet, family, our work but we do not agree on other things, core beliefs, multiple gods, some specific ideology. When he talks about them I tell him I do not agree and when I say things he isn’t on board with he does the same. I love him like a brother, always have, always will. I do not accept his faith but I tolerate it and never say anything negative about it.

    You don’t get to tell me that I am unloving of someone with whom I disagree unless my actions back that up. My mother I believe suffers from mental illness, I love her and tolerate her and do all I can not to hurt her with my words or actions. I love her as she is, with no expectation of change on her part.

    As for the “you can and should do better” Name someone for whom this statement does not apply. The thing you of all people should recognize is how much better I am doing compared to who I was 10 years ago.

    I have said it to others and I will say it to you, once you get your preconceived ideas of who I am and what I believe out of your way you can begin to take my words at face value. I will send you a private message with one more comment because I believe if I post it in the open forum people will get offended.

  • #282679

    EGL Admin
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    You need to be in lock step with the PC’ers on these issues or else you get flamed. I’ve noticed on this topic and others that the personal attacks often come from the ones who are supposed to be more tolerant. You didn’t personally attack anyone on this thread, yet you were personally attacked by some people. We all know the #1 person for that. He is unable to have a debate without resorting to that. It will always come back to that. After what, over 10 years of experience with him? I think we all know that. I’ve learned that if you mute the radio, it’s a much more peaceful place.

  • #282818

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 114154 wrote:

    Intolerance is a misused word in this kind of discussion. Tolerance is easy. If I were intolerant I would be making efforts to stop those who act in a way which opposes my world view from doing what they are doing and believing what they are believing. I would insult them, ridicule them, do everything in my power to crush them and their concrete skulls for not seeing things my way. I would not tolerate it.

    But I am tolerant, because I am not interested in pushing my faith and my beliefs upon others who have no interest in them. I am not trying to stop the world from being what it is.

    An appropriate word is acceptance. I am not accepting of certain words, thoughts and actions as being good for individuals or society. I have not been convinced that the arguments used to promote these words thoughts and behaviors have been effective or even truthful and suspect that political correctness has so numbed the mind of many that most are feeling their way through the decisions rather than applying critical thought. This thread is a great example of that.

    What most of you have missed is the absurdity of your position, not the jenner/transgender thing, the position that anyone who believes in God (which only came into the discussion because others felt the need to ridicule) and doesn’t embrace this particular case as brave and good for him is filled with hate and equivalent to a murderer. Don’t you, can’t you see the absurdity in all of that over emotionalized hyperbole? If not, what a waste of time this has been.

    I think calling them mentally ill, preventing them from things like adoption or marriage is insulting them and preventing them from being who they are.

  • #282819

    newmom
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    @Action>Emotion 114154 wrote:

    Intolerance is a misused word in this kind of discussion. Tolerance is easy. If I were intolerant I would be making efforts to stop those who act in a way which opposes my world view from doing what they are doing and believing what they are believing. I would insult them, ridicule them, do everything in my power to crush them and their concrete skulls for not seeing things my way. I would not tolerate it.

    But I am tolerant, because I am not interested in pushing my faith and my beliefs upon others who have no interest in them. I am not trying to stop the world from being what it is.

    An appropriate word is acceptance. I am not accepting of certain words, thoughts and actions as being good for individuals or society. I have not been convinced that the arguments used to promote these words thoughts and behaviors have been effective or even truthful and suspect that political correctness has so numbed the mind of many that most are feeling their way through the decisions rather than applying critical thought. This thread is a great example of that.

    What most of you have missed is the absurdity of your position, not the jenner/transgender thing, the position that anyone who believes in God (which only came into the discussion because others felt the need to ridicule) and doesn’t embrace this particular case as brave and good for him is filled with hate and equivalent to a murderer. Don’t you, can’t you see the absurdity in all of that over emotionalized hyperbole? If not, what a waste of time this has been.

    Who said anything about hate or murder?

  • #282898

    ActionEmotion
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    @newmom 114192 wrote:

    I think calling them mentally ill, preventing them from things like adoption or marriage is insulting them and preventing them from being who they are.

    My opinion prevents none of that.

  • #282730

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 114182 wrote:

    My faith which is the source of my morality tells me that I must adhere to a certain standard with regard to my words thoughts and actions. None can completely succeed at this which is why Jesus etc etc. Man sins, Jesus forgives.

    Allow me to put in bold type the parts that lead people to always address your faith when they speak to you about these things. I understand what you are saying even if I use different words to say essentially the same thing. For me, the definition must be circular (my morality requires that I must adhere to certain standards) with a small chance that someone pushing me will get me to reinterpret events shifting the circular loop around a bit.

    Quote:
    My lack of acceptance is not of them as a human but of some of their words thoughts and actions. This is a key point. No man is without sin, therefore not accepting a person because they sin is an abomination.

    Yes… but what I’m trying to point out is that your lack of acceptance of their thoughts and actions AND the change we have made regarding the DSM is a non-acceptance of them as the persons they are. The old opinion that they are mentally ill by definition has been rejected by a very large number of us, thus we see your lack of acceptance of these thoughts as an abomination.

    Let me try a small test here in case it might help. Is there any evidence that we could provide to you that you’d accept as contradictory of your current belief that these folks are mentally ill? What would you accept? I have no doubt believing no one has made the effort yet, so rather than attack your position I’ll invite you to step up and offer us a challenge we might meet head on.

    Quote:
    I’m sure common ground could be found somewhere in everyone with whom I disagree on a number of topics. This is the human condition. The reason I respect you is because you seek common ground with me regardless of your lack of acceptance of my faith. This is the place where true diversity thrives.

    Much appreciated.

    Quote:
    So to say I am not accepting “them” and therefore not loving is a mis-characterization.

    Your example doesn’t protect you from the accusation I’m leveling in your direction. It’s a good example and demonstrates your mental flexibility, but it makes a stronger case for us to try harder to convince you to take the next step in both toleration and acceptance toward love. Loving a mentally ill person is both difficult and dangerous, but a misdiagnosis of such an illness creates an unnecessary loneliness risk. If you can’t accept them as they are and that they aren’t ill, I’m arguing you could do better.

    Quote:
    You don’t get to tell me that I am unloving of someone with whom I disagree unless my actions back that up.

    I agree, but I stick to my guns because I think your broad diagnosis regarding mental illness backs that up. They aren’t and your lack of acceptance of that demonstrates a lack of love. I’m not going to browbeat you into changing that way, but I’ve learned over the years that you are trying to change that way. Your faith requires it of you.

    Quote:
    As for the “you can and should do better” Name someone for whom this statement does not apply. The thing you of all people should recognize is how much better I am doing compared to who I was 10 years ago.

    Heh. Of course it applies to everyone. I say it to YOU because you actually care about that kind of stuff. You take your faith seriously. You take Matthew 5:16 seriously. If I point out that one of your good deeds isn’t as good as you think it is, I do so as an honest offer of help.

    Quote:
    I will send you a private message with one more comment because I believe if I post it in the open forum people will get offended.

    Okay. I’ll go read it now.

  • #282731

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114191 wrote:

    You need to be in lock step with the PC’ers on these issues or else you get flamed. I’ve noticed on this topic and others that the personal attacks often come from the ones who are supposed to be more tolerant. You didn’t personally attack anyone on this thread, yet you were personally attacked by some people. [/quote]

    PC’ers as you say are just doing what we’ve done since ancient days absent the coercive power of authority.
    We ARE judging him. So what? He’s not in any danger.

    Quote:
    We all know the #1 person for that. He is unable to have a debate without resorting to that. It will always come back to that. After what, over 10 years of experience with him? I think we all know that. I’ve learned that if you mute the radio, it’s a much more peaceful place.

    Heh. I know some folks who would love to get to know you. They troll FB for people like you. They get their jollies from pissing people off who don’t quite know how to turn off their indignation. They’d probably be good at unscripted drama for reality TV shows and you’d be their unwitting source of income. 8)

    Relax, dude. You aren’t in any danger either.
    Neither is this place.

  • #282899

    ActionEmotion
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    @adiffer 114201 wrote:

    PC’ers as you say are just doing what we’ve done since ancient days absent the coercive power of authority.
    We ARE judging him. So what? He’s not in any danger.

    Neither is Jenner. :-p

  • #282732

    adiffer
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    @Action>Emotion 114202 wrote:

    Neither is Jenner. :-p

    Heh. From you? No doubt.

    The problem is that the old ‘mental illness’ meme actually does cause harm.
    At a minimum it isolates them and isolated populations face statistically verifiable risks to their health.
    Jenner can probably avoid some of these, but not all of them.

  • #282680

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 114203 wrote:

    Heh. From you? No doubt.

    The problem is that the old ‘mental illness’ meme actually does cause harm.
    At a minimum it isolates them and isolated populations face statistically verifiable risks to their health.
    Jenner can probably avoid some of these, but not all of them.

    We can’t say either way whether he has a mental illness. Being a transsexual doesn’t preclude him from having a mental illness. Does it make it more likely he might? Could be. Any data on that yet? Might be too soon.

  • #282776

    doclaguna
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    I reject the idea that “diversity” means you have to accept every idea and mindset you meet. Diversity has to do with people’s inherent traits – their sex, sexual preference, race, gender preference shouldn’t matter. That doesn’t mean I have to “accept” backwards thinking, whether it’s female circumcision or the idea all good comes from God.
    I don’t have to be tolerant to harmful ideas when I see or hear them. I don’t have to “tolerate” anti-vax morons.

  • #282900

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 114206 wrote:

    I reject the idea that “diversity” means you have to accept every idea and mindset you meet. Diversity has to do with people’s inherent traits – their sex, sexual preference, race, gender preference shouldn’t matter. That doesn’t mean I have to “accept” backwards thinking, whether it’s female circumcision or the idea all good comes from God.
    I don’t have to be tolerant to harmful ideas when I see or hear them. I don’t have to “tolerate” anti-vax morons.

    You misunderstood. I didn’t say that diversity means you have to embrace all with which you disagree. I said you tolerate it and look for common ground in other areas. The anti-vax people in my opinion are wrong but sell that to a mom who’s child had a negative reaction to a vaccination and who is now suffering because of it. I wouldn’t call her a moron, but I would do my best to find common ground and hope that better ideas that I had might be understood down the line.

    What you call backwards thinking is your opinion. Other people have other opinions. If you embrace diversity you need to embrace that reality or the whole diversity thing falls apart and we’re back to bigotry.

  • #282681

    EGL Admin
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    I posted a link to a story about Don Lemon from CNN criticizing liberals and progressives about being offended by everything and being very intolerant themselves. They are the first ones to call someone a bigot or some other name. That’s just how they do it.

  • #282733

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114205 wrote:

    We can’t say either way whether he has a mental illness. Being a transsexual doesn’t preclude him from having a mental illness. Does it make it more likely he might? Could be. Any data on that yet? Might be too soon.

    I’d be suspicious of any data on this at this point. It would be difficult to avoid the subjective nature of the data. For example, how do you tell the difference between someone who becomes depressed because they don’t fit the gender patterns society expects of them and someone who becomes depressed because they don’t know who they are. Every kid passing through puberty tends to go through the later issue in some form or another, but we get over it after a few years once our bodies stabilize and our self-image adjusts. Does it work the same way for them? Can they stabilize when the people around them want to think of them as something other than what they are? I don’t know a clean way to do the experiment yet, so I’m not science can say much more than what ISN’T likely.

  • #282734

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114217 wrote:

    I posted a link to a story about Don Lemon from CNN criticizing liberals and progressives about being offended by everything and being very intolerant themselves. They are the first ones to call someone a bigot or some other name. That’s just how they do it.

    Nothing new here.

    One of the most dangerous things to do is be one of our partial friends.
    We might throw you under the bus if you don’t commit fully. 8)

    Conservatives have a similar problem on the flip side.
    They have a great deal of difficulty turning on a friend who has previously earned their loyalty but has recently done something rather evil.

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