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Cop throws teen girlto the ground, pulls gun on other teens.

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  • #176160

    doclaguna
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/07/mckinney-police-pool-party_n_7530164.html

    This one has to take the cake. If you cannot handle a bunch of teens in swimsuits, its time for you to find a new profession. Any high school teacher in America could have done a better job at diffusing this situation than this midget cop. For one, where does a “public servant” get off using profanity on the job. Secondly, if that was my daughter he was throwing to the ground like that I would make it my life’s purpose to end him. Third, pulling a gun on kids in swimsuits? What was he afraid of?

    If you read the whole article and other stories around this, it’s obvious that this was racial. Obama has done a piss poor job at helping the racial situation in America. It’s obvious we are sitting on a powderkeg.

  • #283303

    tomwaltman
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    I think there was a huge racial component to the neighbor interaction, but the cop was just a huge idiot. There were several cops there, each appeared to have things under control, and this one cop just appeared to be going nuts. I know we don’t see everything, but several camera angles showed just this one officer losing it. I don’t care what the girl said, he should never have handled her like that.

    Multiple sources cited white residents using racial language to deal with the party crashers. If racism was injected into the situation, that is where it started. The cops did not appear to further that, except the one who lost it, and he was a massive jerk to everyone, rather than appearing racist in his actions. Pulling his gun was a sign of fear. He escalated the situation, and it got out of control due to his actions. I am not sure I wouldn’t have attempted to intervene on the part of the young woman at that point. I thought he was going to beat her, and I am pretty sure everyone around that incident thought the same.

    We have to figure out a way past this BS. President Obama is stoking the flames, but he won’t be around for that much longer. Unfortunately, the fire existed before he started stoking anything. He is simply taking the opportunity to make some political hay.

  • #283232

    adiffer
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    I doubt there is much Obama can do. That powder keg has been sitting there a long time. Our cameras and microphones are the method for lighting the fuse.

    I just saw some of the video content today at lunch. My first response for my wife was to remind her that the correct behavior for when that cop pulls his gun is to rush him with intent to do harm. His fear response looked like what someone does when they intend to use the gun first as a way to create an opposing fear and second as a way to defend one’s self. Rushing him would have violated the internal assumptions he was making and moved him to the second behavior, but not before he was being knocked to the ground.

    I don’t know if ending him would have been my goal, but putting him in a hospital certainly would have been.
    He can say whatever he wants and I won’t go that far, but pulling a gun on kids should be a career ender.

  • #283266

    doclaguna
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    I agree that the other cops were trying to calm midget cop the **** down. The video is pretty horrific, other than him tripping and falling on his ass in the first 15 seconds.

    The race issue to me was in the backstory that some white residents did not like these black kids in their community pool. Evidently there were some racial comments from the residents before cops were called.
    But also look at midget cops reaction or NON-reaction to the big fat white civilian standing right over him when he is beating this girl into the ground versus his reaction to the black kids coming up to help their friend. Not racist, but definitely he feels more threatened by a 15 year old black kid than a 300 lb white grownup male.

  • #283300

    newmom
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    I agree that the cop being clearly threatened and expressing that fear about a group of kids getting anywhere near him, but not being concerned with a really large guy walking around, standing over him, and getting closer to him than most of the kids did, is evidence of at least some kind of bias.

  • #283296

    joy
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    That video actually made me cry. I might end up in jail if someone did that to my daughter in front of me.

  • #283297

    joy
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    Or someone else’s daughter for that matter.

  • #283267

    doclaguna
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    @joy 113748 wrote:

    That video actually made me cry. I might end up in jail if someone did that to my daughter in front of me.

    My neighbor has a daughter who is a skinny little thing that looks a lot like that. It hit me hard, especially since he decided he needed to kneel on her for 5 minutes. But, hey, she was a huge threat in her bikini and he got to go home to his family – that’s all that matters!!!

  • #283315

    Sinful Treats
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    I like to give people the benefit of doubt, or sometimes play devil’s advocate. With all the videos showing cops shooting at unarmed people, I thought when they actually do that to someone who doesn’t have a record, that will get my attention. Then this happens. It could have been handled a lot better. Stupid comes in many forms. You would think with all the bad press on cops, he would have acted better knowing someone is filming. If those kids were guilty of something, it’s probably just trespassing.

  • #283301

    newmom
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    On another site other video was posted that showed 2 white mothers literally fighting with a black teen girl, with some of her male friends in the altercation. It was supposedly that fight that prompted the 911 calls. However, since both whites and blacks were fighting and causing problems, there was no reason for only the black kids to be detained. If only blacks were fighting it would make sense to only detain the black kids-but they weren’t.
    Here is video of that fight-
    https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=fight+at+pool+party+texas&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

    People claiming to be residents of the town and black said that some “thugs” who were uninvited climbed fences to gain entrance, were smoking pot, using profanity, and would not leave when asked. This may or may not be true, and it doesn’t excuse the officer’s actions, but this resident claimed it wasn’t racial.
    http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/06/07/video-emerges-of-violence-at-innocent-pool-party-in-mckinney-texas/

  • #283313

    violarose
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    It hurts my heart too much to watch it, I turn away whenever its on tv.

  • #283189

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 113742 wrote:

    I just saw some of the video content today at lunch. My first response for my wife was to remind her that the correct behavior for when that cop pulls his gun is to rush him with intent to do harm. His fear response looked like what someone does when they intend to use the gun first as a way to create an opposing fear and second as a way to defend one’s self. Rushing him would have violated the internal assumptions he was making and moved him to the second behavior, but not before he was being knocked to the ground.

    I don’t know if ending him would have been my goal, but putting him in a hospital certainly would have been.
    He can say whatever he wants and I won’t go that far, but pulling a gun on kids should be a career ender.

    If you do that, can you please make sure someone gets it on video?

  • #283316

    ActionEmotion
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    There is more to this story than the sensationalized one sided “poor black teen victim of white angry out of control cop” story.

  • #283268

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113796 wrote:

    There is more to this story than the sensationalized one sided “poor black teen victim of white angry out of control cop” story.

    Of course there is. But that still does not justify what he did to this girl. For someone who broadcasts their Christianity as loud as you do, you are pretty far from Christlike in your beliefs.

  • #283317

    ActionEmotion
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    @doclaguna 113805 wrote:

    Of course there is. But that still does not justify what he did to this girl. For someone who broadcasts their Christianity as loud as you do, you are pretty far from Christlike in your beliefs.

    That is an odd comment. How is my comment which states that there is more to the story un Christlike?

  • #283269

    doclaguna
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    Matthew 25:40

    Your lack of empathy to this girl who got manhandled is astounding to me.

  • #283318

    ActionEmotion
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    My lack of empathy…you live in a strange world all created by your fantasy of who you think I am. So bizarre. So what part of what I wrote showed a lack of empathy? Was it perhaps that I dared state that the facts of the story were a lot more complex than the media is currently covering? What a bastard I am so inject sanity into a conversation! Someone really ought to straighten me out huh?

  • #283319

    ActionEmotion
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    Oh and your scripture reference is completely out of context and doesn’t fit the situation but kudos for using the words of Jesus, who you don’t believe in, or his ministry, or his Holiness…hmm.

  • #283270

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113809 wrote:

    My lack of empathy…you live in a strange world all created by your fantasy of who you think I am. So bizarre. So what part of what I wrote showed a lack of empathy? Was it perhaps that I dared state that the facts of the story were a lot more complex than the media is currently covering? What a bastard I am so inject sanity into a conversation! Someone really ought to straighten me out huh?

    Most people see someone who is weak and small being abused and feel empathy for them. You are worried about constructing a back story that would justify that abuse. It’s all good, it’s much more a commentary on who you are as a person.

  • #283320

    ActionEmotion
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    OK, you keep inventing reasons to dislike me. I hope that serves you well. Talk about believing a fantasy!

  • #283271

    doclaguna
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    @Action>Emotion 113816 wrote:

    OK, you keep inventing reasons to dislike me. I hope that serves you well. Talk about believing a fantasy!

    I don’t have to invent reasons to dislike you. Your bigotry as evidenced time and again in your posts is enough for me.

  • #283302

    newmom
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    If groups if kids were running around threatening people, then it would be ok for the cop to make those kids (and only those kids) sit on the ground). It’s clear from the video that these kids did nothing wrong at that time. If they had been running around and them stopped and were just standing around as when the video started, he was still totally wrong to throw them to the ground like he did and throw his gun around.

    There was zero reason for the officer to pull his weapon and literally threaten kids to keep away. There was zero reason for the cop to pull that girl down to the ground and sit on her and handcuff her. She had no weapons hidden anywhere, she wasn’t a threat to anyone. He didn’t like how she acted and got angry with her. It was unprofessional and uncalled for. He doesn’t belong on the streets. Neither of the other two officers behaved anywhere like he did. He escalated the situation rather than resolving anything. If he felt threatened, it was only because of his actions and how he made a situation worse, rather than anything the teens did there.

  • #283190

    EGL Admin
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    That cop was crazy. He was running all around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to tackle people and make them sit down and wait.

    I still want to see a video of Al trying to tackle a cop with a gun drawn. Best case scenario is he only gets the crap beat out of him. There is no way that ends well at all.

  • #283233

    adiffer
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    I watched the video a bit more last night. The big white guy was obviously protecting the cop from the children harassing him while he did his job. I have no doubt the cop correctly interpreted the intent of the large guy standing over him… protectively.

  • #283234

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113832 wrote:

    I still want to see a video of Al trying to tackle a cop with a gun drawn. Best case scenario is he only gets the crap beat out of him. There is no way that ends well at all.

    Heh. I assure you I won’t be thinking about witnesses if I’m ever unfortunate enough to find myself in this situation.

    Of course it wouldn’t end well, but I sincerely doubt I could stand by and let something like this proceed. Could you?

  • #283191

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 113849 wrote:

    Heh. I assure you I won’t be thinking about witnesses if I’m ever unfortunate enough to find myself in this situation.

    Of course it wouldn’t end well, but I sincerely doubt I could stand by and let something like this proceed. Could you?

    I don’t know. I wouldn’t tackle a cop with a gun. At that point his life is in danger and he could shoot you and it will be ruled self defense.

    Just heard on the news that the cop has resigned. That’s a good idea. He totally mishandled that situation. I think you have to establish what happened first, not just go chasing people around like a maniac. I do think there is more to the story.

    I do wonder when the cops are around like that, why people come closer to the action? At the point when officer pulled her down and the crowd gathered around him, that was a dangerous situation for everyone, for him and the people. It just escalates the situation. When the cops came and started going after people, that would have been a good time to back away and watch it from afar. I don’t know what the girl said to him. The other kids he told to sit down and stay there did.

  • #283304

    tomwaltman
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    Doc, I think the people around the situation were seriously worried he would beat that girl. I don’t think they were doing anything other than showing sincere concern that he was out of control, and her life was in danger. The cop created that situation.

  • #283272

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 113858 wrote:

    I don’t know. I wouldn’t tackle a cop with a gun. At that point his life is in danger and he could shoot you and it will be ruled self defense.

    Just heard on the news that the cop has resigned. That’s a good idea. He totally mishandled that situation. I think you have to establish what happened first, not just go chasing people around like a maniac. I do think there is more to the story.

    I do wonder when the cops are around like that, why people come closer to the action? At the point when officer pulled her down and the crowd gathered around him, that was a dangerous situation for everyone, for him and the people. It just escalates the situation. When the cops came and started going after people, that would have been a good time to back away and watch it from afar. I don’t know what the girl said to him. The other kids he told to sit down and stay there did.

    Because human nature for a lot of us is to try to protect people in need, especially someone young, elderly, etc. I guess if your only concern is your own safety you can turn away from a lot of injustice from the world. Do I think you should do something fool hearty like all? Nope. But speaking out loudly, and acting in last resort, yup.

  • #283192

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    @tomwaltman 113863 wrote:

    Doc, I think the people around the situation were seriously worried he would beat that girl. I don’t think they were doing anything other than showing sincere concern that he was out of control, and her life was in danger. The cop created that situation.

    I don’t know if that is what it was. We’ve seen it before where people gather around and try to intervene. Not a good idea sometimes .

  • #283193

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    @doclaguna 113864 wrote:

    Because human nature for a lot of us is to try to protect people in need, especially someone young, elderly, etc. I guess if your only concern is your own safety you can turn away from a lot of injustice from the world. Do I think you should do something fool hearty like all? Nope. But speaking out loudly, and acting in last resort, yup.

    In the future I will be sure to say whatever, act tough and talk a big game knowing the situation has passed and I won’t have to worry about actually dealing with it. If it’s not your own daughter, I am going to say no one here would have touched the officer. You would have done what the other people did and and get close and say something. if it’s your own kid, that’s different, you might do something physically depending on the situation. You’re not dealing with some random thug though. It’s not like someone attacked the girl and everyone stood by or ran away. It was a cop, which no matter what any of you think or want to think, there are things they can do that we can’t. Al can argue it all he wants about what is legal or not legal and if we can shoot officers or attack them etc. Most of us would do what the people there did, try to calm the cop down and not escalate it. A couple of the people came a little too close.

    As far as turning away from injustices of the world, does typing on a keyboard about an incident that has already past count as “doing something”?

  • #283235

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113858 wrote:

    I don’t know. I wouldn’t tackle a cop with a gun. At that point his life is in danger and he could shoot you and it will be ruled self defense. [/quote]

    I would tackle him and not think much about my safety. I’m pretty sure of that based on previous ‘Obviously I didn’t think’ events I’ve experienced. What the final ruling would be wouldn’t matter to me at the time. Protecting children would.

    I don’t argue about whether these instincts are right or not. They just are what they are.

    Quote:
    Just heard on the news that the cop has resigned. That’s a good idea. He totally mishandled that situation. I think you have to establish what happened first, not just go chasing people around like a maniac. I do think there is more to the story.

    That’s a good start. I hope he has the courage to apologize. If so, I’ll give him credit for realizing his responsibilities as an adult male and not ask that this be a career ender for him. Mistakes happen and the people who make them can become very effective teachers helping others to avoid those mistakes.

    I’m sure there is more to the story. I suspect he DID think he had the situation scoped out. Unfortunately, his emotions got the better of him. He’s very lucky he didn’t get seriously hurt or do more harm than he did.

    Quote:
    I do wonder when the cops are around like that, why people come closer to the action? At the point when officer pulled her down and the crowd gathered around him, that was a dangerous situation for everyone, for him and the people. It just escalates the situation. When the cops came and started going after people, that would have been a good time to back away and watch it from afar. I don’t know what the girl said to him. The other kids he told to sit down and stay there did.

    No doubt the girl was standing her ground and demanding proper treatment. If she used colorful language, that doesn’t diminish her cause. What I’m curious to know is what her parents think of this.

    They closed around the cop because they knew he was out of control and a danger to the girl. They were obviously trying to slap or knock him away from her. He wasn’t in much danger beyond a slap, push, or hair pulling… but he went indignant over them challenging him. Indignant rage is very dangerous and they read the situation correctly.

  • #283236

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113868 wrote:

    If it’s not your own daughter, I am going to say no one here would have touched the officer. You would have done what the other people did and and get close and say something. if it’s your own kid, that’s different, you might do something physically depending on the situation. [/quote]

    Your lack of empathy is impressive. I’m not referring to what you might not do for the girl. I’m referring to your lack of understanding of people you’ve talked to for years here and elsewhere. You brush this off as tough bluster as if you can’t comprehend that we might be different from you.

    Quote:
    You’re not dealing with some random thug though. It’s not like someone attacked the girl and everyone stood by or ran away. It was a cop, which no matter what any of you think or want to think, there are things they can do that we can’t. Al can argue it all he wants about what is legal or not legal and if we can shoot officers or attack them etc. Most of us would do what the people there did, try to calm the cop down and not escalate it. A couple of the people came a little too close.

    Can’t.
    Seriously?

    I don’t doubt you about the lack of response or attempt at a mild response from many people in these situations. The danger isn’t that we will all suddenly become rabid killers of cops. The danger is that a small percentage of us will tip in the direction of ‘mistrust’ and the cops (including the good ones) won’t have the support of their communities when they most need it. Governance isn’t possible without the permission of the governed. It doesn’t take much of a minority rebellion to turn our preferred governance into a police state. Lose 2% and you can lose the Rule of Law. Lose that Rule and you are on a terribly slippery slope.

    Quote:
    As far as turning away from injustices of the world, does typing on a keyboard about an incident that has already past count as “doing something”?
  • #283273

    doclaguna
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    Doc, I would hazard that half the mothers on this site would step in and offer aid of some sort to a child getting manhandled like that, without thought in that second of their own safety. It’s not that any of us are “tough” but rather that our empathy would move us to act. I’m not trying to be “tough” not is Al. It’s not a tough thing, it overcoming fear to act. Fear does not rule my life. If I had to act I don’t have this fantasy that I’m going to kick some cop’s ass. More likely I would be hurt, but better me than some frail 14 year old girl.

  • #283314

    Scarlet
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    I would hazard that half the mothers on this site would step in and offer aid of some sort to a child getting manhandled like that, without thought in that second of their own safety.
    Yes you are correct DocL – I would first try to nicely persuade the officer to remove his knee from the girls back before I helped him remove it leaving him unable to walk on his own again 😉

  • #283274

    doclaguna
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    @scarlet 113884 wrote:

    I would hazard that half the mothers on this site would step in and offer aid of some sort to a child getting manhandled like that, without thought in that second of their own safety.
    Yes you are correct DocL – I would first try to nicely persuade the officer to remove his knee from the girls back before I helped him remove it leaving him unable to walk on his own again 😉

    Obviously you are just acting “tough” per DocS… 😉

  • #283237

    adiffer
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    nicely persuade? Hah!

    I’ve never met a mother bear yet who didn’t persuade with fang and claw. 8)

  • #283275

    doclaguna
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    @adiffer 113889 wrote:

    nicely persuade? Hah!

    I’ve never met a mother bear yet who didn’t persuade with fang and claw. 8)

    Stop with the tough guy or gal act, Al. 😉

  • #283238

    adiffer
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    No more comic book reading late at night. 8)

  • #283194

    EGL Admin
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    Until I see it or hear it in this type of situation, it’s all talk. Talk is cheap. If a gun is pointed at you by a cop it’s a whole lot different than sitting behind a keyboard. Talking to a cop is way different than physically doing anything to him.

    So can I be part of the group if I talk tough? 🙂

  • #283195

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 113895 wrote:

    No more comic book reading late at night. 8)

    That would be a good idea for you Al.

  • #283239

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113896 wrote:

    Until I see it or hear it in this type of situation, it’s all talk. Talk is cheap. If a gun is pointed at you by a cop it’s a whole lot different than sitting behind a keyboard. Talking to a cop is way different than physically doing anything to him. [/quote]

    Your disbelief is equally cheap… and not very honest. You’ve known a few of us for years now.
    You should know by now some of us don’t think like you do. eye rolling
    You are relying too much on what you believe to be common sense. It isn’t.

    Quote:
    So can I be part of the group if I talk tough? 🙂

    Be my guest. 😉

  • #283240

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 113897 wrote:

    That would be a good idea for you Al.

    Heh. That’s actually why I avoid a lot of TV shows. The stuff I like is rare and the stuff that is common has too many ‘demi-god’ characters to be mentally healthy. Competence porn can be just as deranging as regular and soft porn. 8)

  • #283276

    doclaguna
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    Doc, what if I told you I’ve had a gun pulled on me before? Would you just accuse me of being a liar again? How long before you delete this thread?

  • #283305

    tomwaltman
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    I have had a gun “pulled” on me several times. Twice in Sacramento, once in San Antonio, and once in Belgium. Okay, in Belgium it was more like a jeep mounted .50 cal pointed directly in my face when I opened the exit door to the aircraft. They weren’t expecting us when we showed up on their runway… The other times were punks acting tough. No violence involved, but a lot of staring and standing my ground. Except Della Court. I just kept driving that time. That kid was probably going to shoot me. I didn’t give him the chance… Sometimes, you just have to display better judgement.

  • #283241

    adiffer
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    Can’t say I’ve faced a gun yet, but I have had loved ones threatened in my presence. I know from these experiences that I don’t think much about what the other guy COULD do to me. I think about what they could do to my wife or son and then I see red. I snap out of it later usually with my wife pulling me back toward sanity.

    I honestly don’t think the kid in danger has to be mine for this to happen. All they’d have to do is cry out.

  • #283196

    EGL Admin
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    The link below is from a pro-police website and obviously biased. I think it does raise some good points on the thought process of police in situations where there are large crowds. They also mention something about an officer being attacked in a situation like that. Which is why Al’s comment about rushing the officer when he had the gun pulled is absurd. I get wanting to do something, but that has to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard. You could get shot. If the cop sees you coming at him, he could shoot you and he probably won’t be charged even if you are unarmed. You’re a danger to him and he has to think worst case scenario like if you get his gun. He wouldn’t know why you were coming after him. If you go after a cop, it becomes life or death in his mind because a person who would do that is either A) wanting to possibly kill him or B) a deranged lunatic.

    Another point the officer makes, and one which myself and many others agree, is that if you do what the officer told you to do in that situation, most likely none of that happens. If the officer tells you to back up, why not just back up? You can still see what is going on from a distance. What he did after that is a separate issue and I don’t defend that at all, but his reaction was in part due to the action of the people there. The girl who didn’t listen and then the crowd of people who surrounded him and made threatening moves. That is one reason why he pulled his gun. You can’t see all around you and that was becoming a dangerous situation.

    http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/8567368-Why-the-pool-party-arrest-hysteria-is-again-dead-wrong/

    Since the video of a police action in McKinney (Texas) went viral, police critics have been calling for the officer involved in the confrontation to be fired — seeing the writing on the wall, Corporal Eric Casebolt beat everybody to the punch and resigned.

    Critics claim that he should not have drawn his gun when two youths aggressively approached him while he was on a knee, trying to put a young woman into custody. They say also that he should not have used force to put the teen girl on the ground.

    Had the teen girl complied with lawful commands, no force would have been necessary, and none would likely have been used. Regarding the two youths, the officer was outnumbered and surrounded by a hostile and potentially violent crowd. While I don’t condone his coarse language, Corporal Casebolt was justified in drawing his weapon when those two men presented themselves in a threatening manner. That action would pass any “reasonableness test” in any reasonable court in America.

    An average person’s field of view is about 180 degrees, and how fast a perceived threat takes up a large proportion of that space has a significant psychological and physiological effect on the person being attacked.

    Assessing the Situation
    Let’s reset the scene. Multiple calls come in, each indicating a disturbance. Citizens complain of fighting, trespassing, and other infractions, and report that there are multiple individuals involved. This is not a “take a report” radio call — we’re talking crime in-progress.

    The first cop arrives, and it’s a soup sandwich from the get-go. He struggles mightily, but begins getting the primary offenders in order, despite operating alone within an increasingly threatening crowd of onlookers. Would a tactical retreat have been a good idea early on? Someone not present and assessing the situation days later might say “yes,” but Corporal Casebolt didn’t have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight — he pressed on.

    Backup officers arrived, and while Corporal Casebolt was subduing a resistant subject — amid the crowd’s taunting and shouting — two young men rapidly and aggressively loomed into his near right flank. He responded by getting up, unholstering, pointing the gun in a safe direction (at the ground by his side), and issuing verbal commands.

    He should be commended for quickly settling that issue, and then re-holstering and getting back to the business at hand when they scurried off. The fact that he resigned is a sad statement about the officer’s level of confidence that the agency would “have his back” in the aftermath.

    Police leaders should take opportunities like these to talk about the link between use of force and compliance, but too often they forfeit the initiative. It would appear that this has happened again. In fact, it looks a little like McKinney PD hung Corporal Casebolt out to dry.

    Disparity of Force
    Police leaders must take every available opportunity to explain that one of the human factors involved in making decisions in the tactical space is the perception of threat presented by disparity in size or in numbers of potential adversaries. In the incident in McKinney, the officer faced both.

    When the officer arrived on scene, it was one against many. Even when backup arrived, the angry crowd outnumbered the responders trying to restore order to the suburban scene. What’s more important — and what has been ignored wholesale in the mainstream coverage of this incident — are the actions of those two young men in the video, and how those actions can be perceived by the officer on the street.

    An officer (or a number of them) engaged with a subject on the ground is highly vulnerable to an unprovoked attack by a third party. In that position, the officer occupies a position of disadvantage in comparison to an oncoming ambush attacker (or, in this case, a number of them).

    Look no further than the incident in Maryland in 2012 in which two Baltimore (Md.) police officers in the process of taking a suspect into custody were surrounded by angry onlookers when an assailant suddenly tackled one of the cops. Such a situation can go sideways quickly, and can have deadly consequences for the cop.

    Randy Sutton — a 33-year police veteran and the national spokesman for The American Council on Public Safety, told PoliceOne, “Being outnumbered in a mob of people — regardless of whether they are teenagers or adults — is incredibly risky. Two young men were coming up on his gun side and any cop with any experience on the street knows how vulnerable he is to attack and that the removal of his weapon could lead to his death.”

    In the book Left of Bang, Patrick Van Horne and Jason A. Riley explain the concepts of combat profiling, universal behaviors and clusters, kinesics, and proxemics — and how all of those things can imply imminent threat. The two male subjects in McKinney exhibited several of the abovementioned elements which indicated a threat to that officer.

    Van Horne and Riley explain, “A negative atmosphere will be characterized by negative body language — arms crossed, aggressive stances, clenched fists, facial expressions of anger or contempt…” and that “aggressive movements toward something or quick movements away from something may also indicate danger or a potential threat.”

    As those two individuals quickly closed in on the officer, they made themselves appear bigger by taking up more space in the officer’s field of view. They did this by both closing distance as well as spreading their arms and legs apart — classic indicators of threatening intent.

    In Force Science, this is known as looming — the perception of size, distance, and rate of closure of a threat. An average person’s field of view is about 180 degrees, and how fast a perceived threat takes up a large proportion of that space has a significant psychological and physiological effect on the person.

    If all that wasn’t enough, one of the young men appeared to be reaching into his waistband with his left hand. The split-second decision the officer made may have been out of policy by the judgement of the administration, but it was understandable to anyone who has studied human factors in rapidly unfolding, high-stress encounters.

    Unintended Consequences
    Can this incident lead to an increasing tendency among officers to hesitate — to not act — because they don’t want to get tossed under the bus afterward? Will they fret that the public and the press will place undue pressure on the politicians, who will then pass the buck and transfer that burden to police leaders?

    I hope not, but we may be inevitably going there. Gravity works — stuff goes downhill — so we may end up getting police officers who don’t do proactive police work. What happens after that is not a pleasant thought.

    If people continue to pounce on and persecute cops for doing their jobs, we may end up with cops who simply stop doing their jobs. Not wanting leave the career they love, they’ll just do the minimum.

    According to reports, there were multiple people in McKinney who called the police to stop the unrest in their suburban subdivision. Dispatch can’t say to those citizens, “We’re sorry to hear that some uninvited guests are wrecking your kid’s party, but none of our officers will attempt to intervene because they figure it’s going to look bad on video.”

    The McKinney video looked bad. All force looks bad. Force is ugly. Force hurts.

    Corporal Casebolt — through his attorney, and probably at his attorney’s advice — issued an apology for his conduct during that event, explaining that his nerves were frayed after responding to two suicide calls prior to the incident. While that may explain his coarse language, he shouldn’t have to make an excuse for what he did. His actions during the incident were validated regardless of his prior calls.

    The problem is, there are times that cops simply can’t sweet-talk subjects into handcuffs. Citizens would be surprised at just how many times that tactic works, but some guys and gals just won’t go without a fight.

    I hope that police leaders will take this opportunity to engage citizens in frank conversations about compliance with verbal commands being the best means to prevent a use-of-force incident, and about the dangers of making aggressive movements toward an officer attempting to subdue a resisting subject. Because we can’t let the inmates run the asylum.

  • #283306

    tomwaltman
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    I saw that, and it is bullsh1t. It assumes the cops actions are correct from the beginning, and completely excuses improper behavior on the part of police.

    It also assumes that non-violent non-compliance is illegal. Sorry, but there is a little constitutional problem with that assumption.

    If you want to know how North Korea approaches civil disobedience, then that is a pretty good primer…

  • #283197

    EGL Admin
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    Wow, we went straight to North Korea that fast huh? Dang, that sucked.

    No doubt the article above was very biased. It does raise some good points though.

  • #283307

    tomwaltman
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    I guess those other cops standing around with things under control were just slackers.

  • #283198

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    they were dealing with a different situation too. They all came over once things started to get out of hand. I think it’s really easy to second guess what should be done when not in that situation though. Unless you’re a cop, then I don’t think you can understand it very well. It’s like any other profession. This one just has a lot more attention on it.

  • #283277

    doclaguna
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    What a load of crap.

    “Had the teen girl complied with lawful commands, no force would have been necessary.”

    The littlest cop is yelling “Get your ass home.” And the girl is walking away. She probably said some smartass that made his midget ass upset and he goes chasing after her. What lawful command did she disobey? The problem is this idiot didn’t know what he wanted to do. He’s yelling at people to leave, then is upset when they are leaving.

  • #283242

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114019 wrote:

    Which is why Al’s comment about rushing the officer when he had the gun pulled is absurd. I get wanting to do something, but that has to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard. You could get shot. If the cop sees you coming at him, he could shoot you and he probably won’t be charged even if you are unarmed. You’re a danger to him and he has to think worst case scenario like if you get his gun. He wouldn’t know why you were coming after him. If you go after a cop, it becomes life or death in his mind because a person who would do that is either A) wanting to possibly kill him or B) a deranged lunatic.

    Sigh.

    I’m referring to the particular details in the video. The cop pulling the gun was way too close to the kids who could have rushed him. By the time his brain had processed the fact that he was under attack, the nearest of them could have closed the distance and tackled him. If the person doing that is a full grown adult (like an angry father) the impact of the tackle is going to make the cop’s head snap forward and them back making it hard to think let alone point a weapon. He’d be lucky if his head wasn’t bounced off the ground hard by the tackler before he could squeeze the trigger.

    The worst case scenario happens if the would-be tackler is too far away or hesitant. That would obviously be bad. That’s why we are taught to think for ourselves in first-person shooter situations here at work. How much time does it take for someone to get a decision to shoot all the way to their hand? How long does it take to point the weapon accurately? How many milliseconds do you have? How long does it take to process a scene and recognize an immediate threat? How many milliseconds? How much does that time depend on the other person’s current level of situational awareness? How much does it depend on the threat assumptions they are already making before you violate one of them?

    No one thinks about all these timing things while they are in the situation, but it is possible to be taught about them before an event and take advantage of them. Successfully stealing a base in baseball is a matter of milliseconds. Humans are quite capable of doing this and in this case, I sincerely doubt the cop with the gun out would have had time to ‘make the throw’ let alone ‘get the out.’

  • #283199

    EGL Admin
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    I can’t see where teaching people to attack a cop is a good idea under any scenario. That will only make the problem worse and result in more injuries and death, not less. Let’s say someone tackled the cop, now what? What do you think happens next and what have you accomplished? Do you go for his gun? At that point, his life is in danger and he can shoot you. Chances are he may know some hand to hand moves and is able to grab his gun back. All you have done is escalated the situation and made it possible someone gets killed. Here’s a better thing you should teach people, try to calm the situation down. If you’re a bystander try to get people to move back. Just because you can legally stand there, doesn’t mean you should. You’re whole idea of bum rushing the cop is the stupidest thing you have ever said. There is nothing good that will come of that. You’re going to get the crap beat out of you at the very least and maybe killed. At that point it would be all your own fault whatever happened. If you rushed the cop and tackled him and he ended up shooting you, it would be your own fault, not his.

    You said it takes milliseconds. True, it takes only a moment for a cop to be shot. They can’t wait for a person to pull out a gun and shoot before responding.

  • #283243

    adiffer
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    Imagine yourself in the situation. You are close enough to tackle the cop before he can point the gun at you. If you chose not to act, he might point the gun at a kid who is too scared to act. Once the gun is pointing in the right direction, that kid could get killed. Does it really matter what happens after you tackle him if you’ve prevented harm to the kid?

    The obvious thing to do after tackling him is to swat away the gun, pin him to the ground, and keep shouting in his face that you will not tolerate him pointing guns at children. Shout it LOUD so he can’t think about anything else. Shout it like a drill sergeant, but keep your hands away from any other weapons so other cops won’t pull theirs. Keep going until someone pulls you away and then behave yourself the best you can. If people catch all this on video, you are in about the best position you can be in when it comes time to face a judge or jury.

    This isn’t just about teaching people to tackle cops. It’s about teaching people to defend their liberty. It doesn’t really matter if it is a cop or a criminal. Defend what is right.

  • #283278

    doclaguna
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    What would you do Doc if you came across a cop manhandling a young girl like that? Just curious. I don’t think Al or anyone is saying rushing cops is a good idea, but it might be something that someone would do to prevent a cop from smacking around a kid.

  • #283244

    adiffer
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    Yah. Rushing cops is generally a bad idea mostly because most of them are good people and well behaved. I’d much rather work with them. Even if they pop a stitch, I’d rather try to calm them down, but once we get to that point in the video where the cop is pushing the girl’s face into the ground and the other kids are trying to prevent that, we are well past such niceties.

    The guy who protected the cop really should do some soul searching.
    I’d be awful tempted to punch him in the nose for what he tolerated and then enabled.

  • #283200

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    @doclaguna 114066 wrote:

    What would you do Doc if you came across a cop manhandling a young girl like that? Just curious. I don’t think Al or anyone is saying rushing cops is a good idea, but it might be something that someone would do to prevent a cop from smacking around a kid.

    I don’t really know. I wouldn’t physically confront him. It would also depend on how much of the incident I saw. Let’s say you see this happen and you go up to the cop and say hey, let’s calm down man and then he says “get out of here”, now what do you do? I’m being realistic. I know it sounds good to say we would do different and all this “mama bear” stuff, but it will not really change what he is doing.

    Did you notice the other teen boys how they reacted when he said wait here. He didn’t physically do anything. They were smart. They sat there. A few started moving around and he yelled at them to stop. I know for some people that is not what you think they should do. That they should challenge the authority of the cop to tell them to wait there. I think all that does is lead to more problems. I don’t know if any of the others were arrested or not.

  • #283201

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 114064 wrote:

    Imagine yourself in the situation. You are close enough to tackle the cop before he can point the gun at you. If you chose not to act, he might point the gun at a kid who is too scared to act. Once the gun is pointing in the right direction, that kid could get killed. Does it really matter what happens after you tackle him if you’ve prevented harm to the kid?

    The obvious thing to do after tackling him is to swat away the gun, pin him to the ground, and keep shouting in his face that you will not tolerate him pointing guns at children. Shout it LOUD so he can’t think about anything else. Shout it like a drill sergeant, but keep your hands away from any other weapons so other cops won’t pull theirs. Keep going until someone pulls you away and then behave yourself the best you can. If people catch all this on video, you are in about the best position you can be in when it comes time to face a judge or jury.

    This isn’t just about teaching people to tackle cops. It’s about teaching people to defend their liberty. It doesn’t really matter if it is a cop or a criminal. Defend what is right.

    Sigh. The video will show that you attacked the cop and interfered with his duties as a police officer. If you want to take that chance, go for it, I hope someone does record it.

    Once the cop has decided he is going to cuff you and/or arrest you, why resist? If the charges are false, then you can file a lawsuit. Once you start resisting, you lose the upper hand and now you could face additional charges, you may end up getting hurt. If you’re not smart enough to realize that resisting is not a good idea, then you’re not going to be smart enough to plan something like attacking a cop. In this situation by the time you did that the other cops were going to be coming to his aid and beat the crap out of you and you would have deserved it. All they know is they attacked a cop, there is no way that’s going to go over well and you won’t have a chance to try and explain why you did it. So, let’s dispense with the attacking the cop stuff. That’s just ridiculous. Come up with a better plan. If you’re even actually contemplating that, and obviously you do because you told your wife that, then you are crazy.

    How about we all tell our kids, if the cops stop you, be respectful, don’t be an ass, don’t resist if they try and arrest you. If it’s illegal we can sue later. Anything other than that is just asking for problems. It shouldn’t be that hard to understand and do.

  • #283245

    adiffer
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    If you approach a cop making an arrest with intent to influence his behavior you had best be prepared to intervene physically. Don’t bother if you aren’t.

    A similar rule applies to pointing a gun at someone. You had best be mentally prepared to use it. If you aren’t, it might get used on you instead.

  • #283246

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114074 wrote:

    Sigh. The video will show that you attacked the cop and interfered with his duties as a police officer. If you want to take that chance, go for it, I hope someone does record it. [/quote]

    Heh. You are SUCH a pessimist some days.
    You even lean so far as to be a defeatist occasionally.

    Quote:
    Once the cop has decided he is going to cuff you and/or arrest you, why resist? If the charges are false, then you can file a lawsuit. Once you start resisting, you lose the upper hand and now you could face additional charges, you may end up getting hurt. If you’re not smart enough to realize that resisting is not a good idea, then you’re not going to be smart enough to plan something like attacking a cop.

    Why resist? If I think the arrest is illegal I’m going to do my level best to beat the crap out of a cop who keeps trying. If I’m not sure, I’ll consider going peacefully and then fighting in court. Anything less would be a surrender of my liberty. No $#^T!ing way.

    Quote:
    In this situation by the time you did that the other cops were going to be coming to his aid and beat the crap out of you and you would have deserved it.

    Maybe. If I prevented a kid from being beaten or killed instead, I’m willing to take my lumps.

    As for me deserving it… no way in hell are you right there. The other cops might believe that, but that doesn’t change what I’d probably do. I know from experience I see red and don’t think at a higher level until the situation is over. The other cops would be in just as much danger as I would be if they closed in.

    Quote:
    So, let’s dispense with the attacking the cop stuff. That’s just ridiculous. Come up with a better plan. If you’re even actually contemplating that, and obviously you do because you told your wife that, then you are crazy.

    Nah. I’m just male. My wife gave me a look that said as much. It’s not ridiculous. It just is what it is. Someone should have knocked that cop on his ass and bounced his head against the ground the moment he reached for his gun. He became a danger to children at that very moment and my blood would have screamed for his had I been there.

    Quote:
    How about we all tell our kids, if the cops stop you, be respectful, don’t be an ass, don’t resist if they try and arrest you. If it’s illegal we can sue later. Anything other than that is just asking for problems. It shouldn’t be that hard to understand and do.

    Cowardly and Submissive.
    Teaching our children to behave that way will destroy this civilization we’ve manage to build.

    No.

  • #283308

    tomwaltman
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    Doc, do you believe this cop was doing what is right? I don’t care if the lawyers at the cop union want to argue the legality of his actions. I want to know if you thought he was right in what he did to this girl.

    I have just a little training and application in crowd control and controlled chaos. I don’t think I know what cops know, but at a base level, our training is very similar. If I had a young officer acting like this cop, I would stop the exercise and had a long talk about his actions. If you are in command, you need to be the one person who is completely calm and under control. If you cannot manage that, then you fail command 101. What this cop did would get him and a lot of his unit killed in a truly hostile environment. He is very lucky that this didn’t go way sideways.

    And I, for one, do not advocate “resistance” for the sake of resistance. But I do recognize that very basic American right to protest authority, even the “authority” of the police. If the police can’t handle that, they should take a VERY long look in the mirror and ask themselves why they became police officers.

  • #283279

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 114071 wrote:

    I don’t really know. I wouldn’t physically confront him. It would also depend on how much of the incident I saw. Let’s say you see this happen and you go up to the cop and say hey, let’s calm down man and then he says “get out of here”, now what do you do? I’m being realistic. I know it sounds good to say we would do different and all this “mama bear” stuff, but it will not really change what he is doing.

    Did you notice the other teen boys how they reacted when he said wait here. He didn’t physically do anything. They were smart. They sat there. A few started moving around and he yelled at them to stop. I know for some people that is not what you think they should do. That they should challenge the authority of the cop to tell them to wait there. I think all that does is lead to more problems. I don’t know if any of the others were arrested or not.

    It depends on the amount of physical harm I saw being done. I would not leave because some idiot in a uniform told me to. If it was just manhandling, I would tape the incident. If it looked like someone was getting beat to death ala Kelly Thomas I don’t think I could idly sit by. I think you have this tendency to project what you would do onto others when you think a lot of us would sit by paralyzed. I would honestly rather be dead than live with sitting by watching someone be beat to death.

  • #283202

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    I don’t think the girl was getting beaten to death. So in this particular situation what would you have done?

  • #283203

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    @tomwaltman 114081 wrote:

    Doc, do you believe this cop was doing what is right? I don’t care if the lawyers at the cop union want to argue the legality of his actions. I want to know if you thought he was right in what he did to this girl.

    I have just a little training and application in crowd control and controlled chaos. I don’t think I know what cops know, but at a base level, our training is very similar. If I had a young officer acting like this cop, I would stop the exercise and had a long talk about his actions. If you are in command, you need to be the one person who is completely calm and under control. If you cannot manage that, then you fail command 101. What this cop did would get him and a lot of his unit killed in a truly hostile environment. He is very lucky that this didn’t go way sideways.

    And I, for one, do not advocate “resistance” for the sake of resistance. But I do recognize that very basic American right to protest authority, even the “authority” of the police. If the police can’t handle that, they should take a VERY long look in the mirror and ask themselves why they became police officers.

    I don’t think protesting police actions involve physically assaulting them because you feel they might be using a little too much force on someone.

  • #283204

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    @adiffer 114076 wrote:

    Heh. You are SUCH a pessimist some days.
    You even lean so far as to be a defeatist occasionally.

    Why resist? If I think the arrest is illegal I’m going to do my level best to beat the crap out of a cop who keeps trying. If I’m not sure, I’ll consider going peacefully and then fighting in court. Anything less would be a surrender of my liberty. No $#^T!ing way.

    Maybe. If I prevented a kid from being beaten or killed instead, I’m willing to take my lumps.

    As for me deserving it… no way in hell are you right there. The other cops might believe that, but that doesn’t change what I’d probably do. I know from experience I see red and don’t think at a higher level until the situation is over. The other cops would be in just as much danger as I would be if they closed in.

    Nah. I’m just male. My wife gave me a look that said as much. It’s not ridiculous. It just is what it is. Someone should have knocked that cop on his ass and bounced his head against the ground the moment he reached for his gun. He became a danger to children at that very moment and my blood would have screamed for his had I been there.

    Cowardly and Submissive.
    Teaching our children to behave that way will destroy this civilization we’ve manage to build.

    No.

    Blah blah blah tough talk blah blah blah. It’s so easy to say what you would do knowing you’ll never have to do it.

  • #283247

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114089 wrote:

    It’s so easy to say what you would do knowing you’ll never have to do it.

    Blah blah blah.
    I have a son who I know for a fact will NOT comply when some idiot in a uniform shouts at him.
    I could very easily find myself in a situation like this. Amy knows it too and is more than a little scared about having to bury both of us.

  • #283248

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114088 wrote:

    I don’t think protesting police actions involve physically assaulting them because you feel they might be using a little too much force on someone.

    I do.

    I’d rather not need to, though.

  • #283205

    EGL Admin
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    Another perspective from someone who was supposedly at the pool party.

    http://conservativetribune.com/black-radio-host-mckinney/

  • #283321

    Anonymous
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    @adiffer 114076 wrote:

    Why resist? If I think the arrest is illegal I’m going to do my level best to beat the crap out of a cop who keeps trying. If I’m not sure, I’ll consider going peacefully and then fighting in court. Anything less would be a surrender of my liberty. No $#^T!ing way.

    If you “think” the cop is arresting you illegally then you will do whatever you can to beat the crap out of the cop?

    @adiffer 114076 wrote:

    Cowardly and Submissive.
    Teaching our children to behave that way will destroy this civilization we’ve manage to build.

    It is not teaching children to behave cowardly and submissive. It is teaching children to respect law and authority. Not blindly bending over for it, but to respect it. I fear for the safety of your children if they follow your lead.

    And by encouraging society to “beat the crap out of cops” when you “think” (I got my lawyer degree from Youtube) the arrest is illegal will destroy this civilization that we’ve managed to build. And that is whats happening recently. This anti-cop behavior is promoting a culture that blames others for their mistakes and doesn’t promote personal responsibility.

  • #283206

    EGL Admin
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    ^+1

  • #283322

    Anonymous
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    @doclaguna 114066 wrote:

    What would you do Doc if you came across a cop manhandling a young girl like that? Just curious. I don’t think Al or anyone is saying rushing cops is a good idea, but it might be something that someone would do to prevent a cop from smacking around a kid.

    Manhandle? Smack? Just stop it with your adjectives. You make it sound like he was pimp smacking some girl and throwing her around the house.

  • #283207

    EGL Admin
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    Teaching kids to be respectful of cops is not cowardly. I think we are in this mess right me because people are not respectful and make it worse.

  • #283249

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114100 wrote:

    Teaching kids to be respectful of cops is not cowardly. I think we are in this mess right me because people are not respectful and make it worse.

    Of course it isn’t cowardly. That’s not what you were addressing earlier, though.
    None of us think it is a good idea to beat up cops.
    Some of us think it might be necessary if they go too far because the alternatives are worse.

  • #283208

    EGL Admin
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    Sure it’s the same thing. I will teach my kids to be smart, not be a dumb ass and shoot their mouths off and challenge the cops. There’s many other battles to be fought.

  • #283250

    adiffer
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    @CJay916 114096 wrote:

    If you “think” the cop is arresting you illegally then you will do whatever you can to beat the crap out of the cop? [/quote]

    If they are intent on arresting me and I think it is an illegal arrest, I will resist. Since they are armed and trained to use deadly force, you bet I’m going to beat them down if I think they are willing to go that far. My liberty is not something I give away for the sake of my security. It’s also not something I’ll wave around stupidly to rationalize anything I do.

    Quote:
    It is not teaching children to behave cowardly and submissive. It is teaching children to respect law and authority. Not blindly bending over for it, but to respect it. I fear for the safety of your children if they follow your lead.

    If we sat down over a beer and talked about the details here, you’d probably find I’m not that much of a radical. We are probably violently agreeing with each other on all but a few details. I’m just recognizing that the instinct to protect children isn’t something you can quash easily by demanding I respect the law. I DO respect the law, but I get profoundly annoyed by people who break the Rule of Law. An abusive cop can do FAR more damage to public trust in their social institutions than I can do.

    Quote:
    And by encouraging society to “beat the crap out of cops” when you “think” (I got my lawyer degree from Youtube) the arrest is illegal will destroy this civilization that we’ve managed to build. And that is whats happening recently. This anti-cop behavior is promoting a culture that blames others for their mistakes and doesn’t promote personal responsibility.

    I’ll have to disagree with you here.
    Life ain’t so simple.

  • #283251

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114102 wrote:

    Sure it’s the same thing. I will teach my kids to be smart, not be a dumb ass and shoot their mouths off and challenge the cops. There’s many other battles to be fought.

    Okay. Are you going to blame them for the beating they get if they DO slip up, act like a smart ass, and the cop they face pops a stitch?
    Are you going to blame them for the beating they get resisting an honest to God illegal arrest?

  • #283209

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 114104 wrote:

    Okay. Are you going to blame them for the beating they get if they DO slip up, act like a smart ass, and the cop they face pops a stitch?
    Are you going to blame them for the beating they get resisting an honest to God illegal arrest?

    It depends on what they did. You can fight an illegal arrest in court later. You won’t win a physical confrontation. You’re going to get hurt and still get arrested, so what exactly have you gained?

  • #283280

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 114089 wrote:

    Blah blah blah tough talk blah blah blah. It’s so easy to say what you would do knowing you’ll never have to do it.

    Is it that hard to believe that people exist in the world who are not afraid of their own shadows?

  • #283210

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 114091 wrote:

    Blah blah blah.
    I have a son who I know for a fact will NOT comply when some idiot in a uniform shouts at him.
    I could very easily find myself in a situation like this. Amy knows it too and is more than a little scared about having to bury both of us.

    You are correct that is a real fear for you and your son. For your son, yes you would do that. For some other kid being an ass, not so much. It’s less of an issue for others though and they can explain to their kids the best way to avoid a problem like that. It’s really not hard to do. Since we know the cops are racist and most everyone that is commenting on this topic is white, then they really have less to worry about because the cops only go after black kids right?

    If you guys want to see what you’re up against as far as the attitude of Americans, I suggest you read the comments on FB news posts. I couldn’t guess at the percentages of which side they are on, but there are a lot of people who are saying why didn’t the kids just leave, why didn’t they stay back etc. I know you don’t care what they think, but you should know that the opposition to your line of thinking is very strong. A lot of people believe in personal responsibility.

  • #283211

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114106 wrote:

    Is it that hard to believe that people exist in the world who are not afraid of their own shadows?

    Is it hard to believe that there is a world where people don’t think cops are the boogeyman? I have no fear of cops. Because I know when they stop me I am not going to be an asshat or do something stupid, which is what probably 99% of the people stopped would also do. In your world there are rogue cops at every corner waiting to strike it sounds like.

    I’ve asked this quite a few times now. Since you are so passionate about this issue, what are YOU going to about this to try and change it? Have you contacted anyone about this? Tried to get involved? Last year I contacted the city council members here to see if there were any plans to have body cameras for the police here. I told them I thought it would be a good idea to hopefully prevent a situation here. This year it is in the budget to buy body cameras. I am not saying they did it because I contacted them. They may have already had it planned, but I at least made an effort to find out and contact them. That took maybe 5-10 minutes. How many people here who are bitching about the cops did anything like that? Hopefully some other did. I think I also gave a link to all their email address and said that people should contact them. The time you spend responding to these posts and looking for videos of bad cops could have been spent maybe doing something else to try and help the problem.

  • #283281

    doclaguna
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    You have no fear of cops because you come from a vey homogenized world. I don’t fear cops as much as I distrust anyone given that much power over others. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    I didn’t know the litmus test for posting on a message board was I have to “do something.” Your comments are so weird sometimes.

  • #283212

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114109 wrote:

    You have no fear of cops because you come from a vey homogenized world. I don’t fear cops as much as I distrust anyone given that much power over others. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    I didn’t know the litmus test for posting on a message board was I have to “do something.” Your comments are so weird sometimes.

    My point is if you want people to believe you are truly passionate about this, then it should be more than complaining about it here don’t you think? If you’re half as angry about this as you seem then I don’t see how you can’t do something about it. If you’re attitude is F**K this is BS we need to so something about this, then why not do something?

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    That’s a great soundbite. I don’t think that is the issue though. I don’t think cops have absolute power. I think sometimes they do abuse it, yes. I also think a lot of times there is an area where it gets escalated needlessly by both sides. Unlike some, I don’t place all the blame on cops when things go bad. I think, what did you do to put yourself in that situation? How did you react when approached by the police? I don’t just look at the end result. In a vast majority of the cases the person did something most reasonable people would say was stupid that made the situation worse.

  • #283213

    EGL Admin
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    And you live in the very same world that I live in now and you didn’t always feel this way about cops. so it’s not because of your current life and obviously the life you lived up to this didn’t make you hate cops either.

  • #283252

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114105 wrote:

    It depends on what they did. [/quote]

    Seriously? After a beating?
    I’m doubtful, but you probably know yourself better than I do.
    I find it hard to imagine that you know.

    Quote:
    You can fight an illegal arrest in court later. You won’t win a physical confrontation. You’re going to get hurt and still get arrested, so what exactly have you gained?

    I can’t fight the arrest later if I’m dead.
    I can’t make up for the loss of my son if he gets killed either.

    I don’t think you understand just how motivated I’d be if I knew a kid was in danger. I just might win the confrontation. If it was my son involved, I’d probably be a lot more motivated than the person trying to do him harm. If my wife was even moderately close to the danger I wouldn’t even be aware of the mental transition. I’d be shaving many milliseconds off my responses with the fact that I wasn’t thinking deep.

    Instinct can be blindingly fast, but so can a trained response. Have you ever watched a magician do a sleight of hand trick right in front of you? If you have to think, you won’t catch what they do if they have decent training. It wouldn’t matter if I thought I’d win the confrontation, though. I wouldn’t be thinking about whether I could win.

    The training I get on this stuff teaches that you have to make these decisions yourself based on what you know in the situation. Whether the guy with the gun is a cop or a terrorist, you have to make a decision. Once you’ve made it, though, don’t hesitate. Act on it before the other fellow has a chance to realize his assumptions about you are incorrect. Run, submit, or fight as you choose, but don’t dither.

  • #283253

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114107 wrote:

    You are correct that is a real fear for you and your son. For your son, yes you would do that.

    Good. We are getting somewhere. Cut the crap with the ‘tough talk’ now. Please.

    Quote:
    For some other kid being an ass, not so much.

    No. You are wrong about me on this. It boils down to the fact that I wish I had more kids. I don’t… and shouldn’t at my age. Threaten a kid while I’m present and I might boil over in anger. Do it with a gun and my blood will scream for yours. Is that so hard to understand?

    Quote:
    It’s less of an issue for others though and they can explain to their kids the best way to avoid a problem like that. It’s really not hard to do.

    Good. Please do. Meanwhile I will be teaching them not to be submissive peasants who cower in the face of authority. They ARE the real authority when they become adults and must be ready to prevent the jerks of this world from walking all over them and stealing their future.

    Quote:
    If you guys want to see what you’re up against as far as the attitude of Americans, I suggest you read the comments on FB news posts. I couldn’t guess at the percentages of which side they are on, but there are a lot of people who are saying why didn’t the kids just leave, why didn’t they stay back etc. I know you don’t care what they think, but you should know that the opposition to your line of thinking is very strong. A lot of people believe in personal responsibility.

    I really couldn’t care less what the wanna-be peasants think.

    My FB feed has many extremely angry people who are having a heck of a time being nice even to the good cops. I can still make this distinction. I can still prefer a future where we don’t slip into Civil War. Some of the folks I know want to do far worse than punch noses. They argue that ‘personal responsibility’ requires that we defend our liberty. When I say ‘our’ I’m saying it in the plural. Yours too.

  • #283254

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114110 wrote:

    Unlike some, I don’t place all the blame on cops when things go bad. I think, what did you do to put yourself in that situation? How did you react when approached by the police?

    That is a very reasonable thing to do… in hindsight. Everyone should make an effort to learn from their mistakes.

    If you are doing it in a threat situation, though, you might as well be a rabbit frozen in fear because your reaction speed will be about the same.

  • #283255

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114110 wrote:

    then why not do something?

    Do you have a suggestion?

    Odd as it may be for ME to say this, but this might be one of those situations where getting vocal online actually IS doing something. If enough cops realize how pissed many of us are about this, they might adjust favorably and a kid or two might survive. Obviously, this doesn’t work if the annoyed responders aren’t visible to cops, but I suspect this kind of anger is just as contagious as it is for other issues. Spitting vitriol here will probably have an impact in the other places where some of us hang out. It’s a long shot, though. In the mean time, let’s strip them of the military equipment they have too much of.

  • #283282

    doclaguna
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    You can’t draw a moral equivalent between a 14 year old girl who pops off wise and a adult who is supposed to be a representative of the law. The policeman had to be held to a higher standard than running around cursing people out, beating little girls and pulling a gun on kids. Once again we see how little empathy you have. It’s a disturbing pattern.

  • #283283

    doclaguna
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    I also chuckle every time Doc uses FB comments as a straw poll. Thank God are liberty does not depend on majority rule on FB. The most henious bigoted crap get posed on social media. Evidently a teacher got canned because her take home message from this video is that black should be segregated. That’s the type of people who watch this video and see no problem.

  • #283309

    tomwaltman
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    I will ask this again… Doc, do you think what this cop did was right? Simple question.

  • #283214

    EGL Admin
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    @tomwaltman 114121 wrote:

    I will ask this again… Doc, do you think what this cop did was right? Simple question.

    Tom, I don’t want to make it to easy for you, go back through the thread and read what I said. I think it answers your question.

  • #283215

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114119 wrote:

    You can’t draw a moral equivalent between a 14 year old girl who pops off wise and a adult who is supposed to be a representative of the law. The policeman had to be held to a higher standard than running around cursing people out, beating little girls and pulling a gun on kids. Once again we see how little empathy you have. It’s a disturbing pattern.

    He beat the girl? I love how you always use the extremes to try and illustrate your points. Al says he’s dead now too in his example.

    I’ll take it as a no then that you will actually do anything about this stuff besides complain about it. Duly noted for future reference. I suspected your outrage was just for show and part of your agenda on hating cops anyway. If you really, truly cared you would do something, anything. Your empathy is nothing more than hollow words if you do nothing about it.

  • #283216

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114120 wrote:

    I also chuckle every time Doc uses FB comments as a straw poll. Thank God are liberty does not depend on majority rule on FB. The most henious bigoted crap get posed on social media. Evidently a teacher got canned because her take home message from this video is that black should be segregated. That’s the type of people who watch this video and see no problem.

    See, that’s where your wrong and you vastly underestimate the amount of people who disagree with you. You see race at every time this happens. Others don’t. That’s your issue to deal with. Because you see that doesn’t everyone else does.

  • #283284

    doclaguna
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    http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/fired-texas-teacher-let-go-after-saying-mckinney-pool-party-almost-shows-need-for-racial-segregation/

    “Karen Fitzgibbons, a fourth grade teacher at Frenship Independent School District in Lubbock, wrote that she wanted black people to be “segregated on one side of town so they can hurt each other and leave the innocent people alone. Maybe the 50s and 60s were really on to something.””

    Hard not to comment on race when you read the comment section on any one of these stories and you see the vicious racism. I’m not interjecting race, I’m commenting on it. And if you think the outroar wouldn’t have been 1000 times worse if this was a white girl, you are nuts. The only reason why people think this is even remotely OK is because of attitudes like this woman who is supposed to be a teacher.

  • #283285

    doclaguna
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    And yes Doc that’s beating someone. Pulling them to the ground violently, putting a knee on the their back, pulling their arm behind their back. The fact you don’t see that as a beating speaks volumes about you. What is wrong with you?

  • #283188

    DivotMaker
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    Anyone able to justify this, regardless of what happened prior??

    http://6abc.com/news/cop-indicted-after-video-shows-suspect-kicked-in-head/703334/

    Hard to believe the first grand jury chose not to indict.

  • #283286

    doclaguna
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    Obviously the black guy’s fault. He stuck his head in the way of the kind officer demonstrating punting technique to his partner.

    Besides can you really call one kick to the head a beating?

    Lastly, what are YOU doing about it, divot?

    There you go, now Docs doesn’t have to answer.

  • #283256

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114123 wrote:

    Al says he’s dead now too in his example.

    Maybe. The thing about seeing red is that there IS a danger of killing one’s opponent, but there is a higher risk that you’ll just injure and cripple them and then cool off as soon as the perceived threat ends. This is ancient biology for males on our part of the tree of life.

  • #283257

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114124 wrote:

    See, that’s where your wrong and you vastly underestimate the amount of people who disagree with you. You see race at every time this happens. Others don’t. That’s your issue to deal with. Because you see that doesn’t everyone else does.

    That just means we are in a simmering phase of our long running civil war over this crap. This isn’t properly described as civil disobedience when government authority takes sides. When cops deliver beatings, this is a governance problem.

    Besides, I’m not in the habit of checking social media to see if my code of ethics is still relevant.
    I’ll trim some of my excesses if I think the polls go very strongly against me, but story comments aren’t going to sway me from 50+ years of life experience.

  • #283287

    doclaguna
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    @tomwaltman 114121 wrote:

    I will ask this again… Doc, do you think what this cop did was right? Simple question.

    He dodged it.

  • #283288

    doclaguna
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    @adiffer 114131 wrote:

    That just means we are in a simmering phase of our long running civil war over this crap. This isn’t properly described as civil disobedience when government authority takes sides. When cops deliver beatings, this is a governance problem.

    Besides, I’m not in the habit of checking social media to see if my code of ethics is still relevant.
    I’ll trim some of my excesses if I think the polls go very strongly against me, but story comments aren’t going to sway me from 50+ years of life experience.

    This is the guy who likes Coors light and Nickelback. He’s got the finger in the pulse of the mouth breathing masses…

  • #283298

    joy
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    Did anybody hear the cop’s lawyer talking about what had happened earlier in the day?

  • #283217

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114132 wrote:

    He dodged it.

    Nope. I already answered it. He has to go back and read it.

  • #283218

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114133 wrote:

    This is the guy who likes Coors light and Nickelback. He’s got the finger in the pulse of the mouth breathing masses…

    Maybe you can start a local group and call it EWA – Empathy Without Action (you can feel better without having to do anything about it)

  • #283289

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 114137 wrote:

    Maybe you can start a local group and call it EWA – Empathy Without Action (you can feel better without having to do anything about it)

    You’ve lost the argument when that’s all you have left.

  • #283219

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 114131 wrote:

    That just means we are in a simmering phase of our long running civil war over this crap. This isn’t properly described as civil disobedience when government authority takes sides. When cops deliver beatings, this is a governance problem.

    Besides, I’m not in the habit of checking social media to see if my code of ethics is still relevant.
    I’ll trim some of my excesses if I think the polls go very strongly against me, but story comments aren’t going to sway me from 50+ years of life experience.

    You guys have a long road ahead of you if you think it’s going to change much. I’m sure Doclaguna will offer you moral support. Just don’t expect any actual help though.

  • #283220

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114139 wrote:

    You’ve lost the argument when that’s all you have left.

    Not really. You’re like a radio. I turn the volume down and you disappear.

    I’ll start taking you seriously about this issue when you do more than talk about it. Until then, I’ll leave you with this equation, Empathy X inaction = Zero

  • #283258

    adiffer
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    @joy 114135 wrote:

    Did anybody hear the cop’s lawyer talking about what had happened earlier in the day?

    Yes.

    My anger and screaming blood is mostly an in-the-moment response to what I saw.
    I’ve cooled off enough since then to listen to his side of the story.
    I hope his lawyer does a good job of ensuring people see him as the human being I have no doubt he is.

  • #283290

    doclaguna
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    Be a good boy or I’ll appear on the 27th when you are “running” your 10k and heckle you the whole way…

  • #283221

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114144 wrote:

    Be a good boy or I’ll appear on the 27th when you are “running” your 10k and heckle you the whole way…

    I won’t hear you with the volume turned down so it will be okay.

  • #283259

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114140 wrote:

    You guys have a long road ahead of you if you think it’s going to change much. I’m sure Doclaguna will offer you moral support. Just don’t expect any actual help though.

    Heh. Please DO remember that doclaguna changed his position on this stuff.
    He’s not the only one moved by what they are seeing, hearing, and feeling in response.

    I don’t mind if this takes a lifetime. This is what America is about. The Experiment is still underway.

  • #283291

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 114146 wrote:

    I won’t hear you with the volume turned down so it will be okay.

    Are your fingers jammed in your ears like a child?

  • #283222

    EGL Admin
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    @joy 114135 wrote:

    Did anybody hear the cop’s lawyer talking about what had happened earlier in the day?

    Yeah, but I doubt it will have any effect on the noise makers who don’t really care about that aspect of it. Interesting that the people who have spoken out in favor of him have received death threats, as well as the officer himself.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-pool-party-cop-eric-casebolt-lawyer-he-was-stressed-by-earlier-calls/

  • #283299

    joy
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    It may shed light on his behavior, but it doesn’t excuse it.

  • #283223

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 114148 wrote:

    Are your fingers jammed in your ears like a child?

    No, I just press the mute button and it turns you off. That’s what happens when a person has no physical presence in their community or cares enough about it to do anything. And please, don’t bring up being a doctor because you get paid very well to help people there. I am referring to something outside of that for which you would volunteer your time or some effort to do something in the community. The garbage guy helps the community too by picking up garbage doesn’t mean he cares about the community.

  • #283224

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    @joy 114152 wrote:

    It may shed light on his behavior, but it doesn’t excuse it.

    But it won’t have any affect on the people hate cops.

  • #283292

    doclaguna
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    That line of discussion is so ridiculous and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. You are spiraling, Doc. It’s ridiculous.

  • #283293

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 114155 wrote:

    But it won’t have any affect on the people hate cops.

    “Before receiving the call from dispatch for assistance at the pool party, Casebolt had gotten calls earlier in the day on two separate suicide cases, including one where he had to comfort a grieving widow, Bishkin said.
    Bishkin was careful not to say the stress was an excuse for his actions, adding that Casebolt is “apologizing” to all involved.”

    Man that is so flimsy, I would be embarrassed to even put that out there in a sad attempt to generate sympathy. Obviously this guy didn’t have the skills for the job, I’m glad he resigned.

  • #283260

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114140 wrote:

    Just don’t expect any actual help though.

    Sorry. It just occurred to me how people like doclaguna ARE acting.

    He is raising kids. Care to bet on how much they are influenced by his empathetic response?

  • #283294

    doclaguna
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    @adiffer 114159 wrote:

    Sorry. It just occurred to me how people like doclaguna ARE acting.

    He is raising kids. Care to bet on how much they are influenced by his empathetic response?

    I don’t influence anyone in the community, Al. 😉
    The pen is mighty. When we speak out we take people off the fence and generate momentum for change.

  • #283225

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 114159 wrote:

    Sorry. It just occurred to me how people like doclaguna ARE acting.

    He is raising kids. Care to bet on how much they are influenced by his empathetic response?

    So raising kids is doing something about this issue? You really lowered the threshold then.

  • #283261

    adiffer
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    @doclaguna: Yah. I still owe you for the mocking tone you take regarding some fat people. I couldn’t dodge my internal copy of you mocking me one day when my knee and foot hurt and I didn’t want to face the fact that I weighed in at 250. 8)

    Your kids are multipliers, though. I should know better than to have forgotten that for even a moment.

    Kids grow up with only part of the attitudes their parents had. Your’s could grow up with empathy and a lack of understanding about what kind of crazy-bug infected the brains of the previous generation on this stuff. How many young adults today understand why interracial marriage used to be illegal in many states? The few who still do get smacked down for expressing their thoughts, so the tradition is getting extinguished without the need for state authority. Kids do this when they grow up and have since ancient times. I should have remembered this earlier. 8)

  • #283295

    doclaguna
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    And you’ve raised the bar pretty high for posting online… This whole “look over there” is a sad attempt at distraction from the topic at hand.

  • #283262

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114161 wrote:

    So raising kids is doing something about this issue? You really lowered the threshold then.

    I understand your skepticism, but I’m right on this one and I know it. In terms of long term impact, which is the only way social conventions actually change, raising children a different way is essentially the only thing that matters.

    Your skepticism is correct from the perspective of a progressive. It’s not fast enough.
    From the perspective of a liberal, though, it is the most sane thing to do.
    Incremental social engineering is the only safe way to change what we are.

  • #283226

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 114164 wrote:

    I understand your skepticism, but I’m right on this one and I know it. In terms of long term impact, which is the only way social conventions actually change, raising children a different way is essentially the only thing that matters.

    Your skepticism is correct from the perspective of a progressive. It’s not fast enough.
    From the perspective of a liberal, though, it is the most sane thing to do.
    Incremental social engineering is the only safe way to change what we are.

    Long term yes, but by the time that has an impact on this it will be generations from now. Besides that, you still have the law and order issue that a lot of people see that some of you don’t. There is still a lot of belief that if you don’t break the law, then the chances of this happening are going to be much less. I think that is a core belief for a lot of people and none of the incidents that have happened in the past year will change that.

  • #283263

    adiffer
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    What I’m seeing happening among some people I know is a dawning realization of just how easy it is to break laws one knows nothing about, and how much easier it is to find one’s self in situations where the police have arbitrary authority. Good luck dodging their anger if they get arbitrary on you. Good luck dodging them if they decide to enforce some rarely enforced law against you. As this realization grows, people are going to get more upset and notice the militarization of their local police force. It won’t end well.

    As for the amount of time it takes, you might be right, but I doubt it.
    This pimple is going to pop with this generation and it’s going to be messy.
    If it takes longer, it will be FAR messier and bloody.
    (My crystal ball says this turns into broad scale civil disobedience in the next decade.)

  • #283227

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    What I am wondering too is when the kids get older and if that changes their perspective. A lot of people get more conservative as they age. I can’t remember who it was I was talking to recently, but this person was pretty liberal. Now they have a business and are seeing the other side of things which is making them rethink. I think in this situation as kids get older instead of looking at it like an issue of liberty, they may look at it like, why did that person break the law in the first place?

  • #283310

    tomwaltman
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    Actually, Doc, it isn’t that people move right as they age. People tend to move to the center. Those on the Left do move Right, and those on the Right move towards the left. I had a professor describe me as a reactionary in training in one of my classes. I thought that was cool when I was younger. I have realized that I will be damned if I keep casting stones towards those I disagree with. Literally.

    Shifting either way is not universal, and some people become even more of whatever they were. We generally refer to them as crotchety old cracks.

  • #283264

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114175 wrote:

    What I am wondering too is when the kids get older and if that changes their perspective. A lot of people get more conservative as they age. I can’t remember who it was I was talking to recently, but this person was pretty liberal. Now they have a business and are seeing the other side of things which is making them rethink. I think in this situation as kids get older instead of looking at it like an issue of liberty, they may look at it like, why did that person break the law in the first place?

    Do you see a recovery of the taboo regarding interracial marriage?

    My mother is outspokenly progressive and feels no shame raiding your wallet with taxes to support social programs designed to help people. Any of you who oppose the enforced donation are evil monsters or stupidly supportive of them. She has actually drifted farther in that direction as she has grown older and grows less and less concerned about her children being successful. She can be who she is without fear of harming our futures because we are managing our own and have for a long time.

    I suspect the perceived trend toward conservatism is more like Tom says and that it is very incomplete. Someone might move right in the fiscal sense and left in the social sense. I can’t imagine any other possibility explaining the general drift toward acceptance of homosexuals and same-sex marriage. One generation is shifting a bit and the next is wondering how could their parents have been so crazy as to treat homosexuality as a mental illness when it is obvious to them it isn’t.

    I also suspect the perceived trend is advocated by those who still cling to a bit of historicism. There ARE trends, but predicting them is problematic. Anyone who thinks they have ‘natural laws’ making such predictions possible is engaging in prophecy as far as I’m concerned. Prophecy is dangerously seductive. It’s an ancient drug.

  • #283228

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    I think interracial marriage is apples and oranges compared to this. Gay marriage is as well. That’s stopping people who have not done anything and keeping them from being happy. The crime issue with cops is very different. In most of the cases the person broke a law, then did something else besides that to make things worse. Behaving in a respectful manner protects everyone. If a cop stops you, hand over your license and insurance. Don’t get out of the car. Don’t try and argue or do anything stupid and most cases nothing is going to happen. In most cases, not all, it really is that easy. Don’t run from the cops. Don’t try to fight with them. Mike Brown would still be alive. The guy in New York would still be alive. The guy in South Carolina would still be alive. The guy in Baltimore would still be alive. In every one of those cases they did something else that made the situation a lot worse than it would have been. That’s the bottom line for a lot of people which is why there is not going to be as much support for your cause.

  • #283229

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    @tomwaltman 114179 wrote:

    Actually, Doc, it isn’t that people move right as they age. People tend to move to the center. Those on the Left do move Right, and those on the Right move towards the left. I had a professor describe me as a reactionary in training in one of my classes. I thought that was cool when I was younger. I have realized that I will be damned if I keep casting stones towards those I disagree with. Literally.

    Shifting either way is not universal, and some people become even more of whatever they were. We generally refer to them as crotchety old cracks.

    I don’t think moving left socially and supporting gay marriage or other social causes means they will move away from supporting cops.

  • #283311

    tomwaltman
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    Movement either way doesn’t have much to do with supporting cops. Cops are doing that all on their own. And the conservative press isn’t helping them either. These people are ignorant of recent history.

    Right now, cops are losing the trust of the people. Argue that all you want, but they don’t have anywhere near lockstep support from the right. And even less from the left. Circling the wagons, and claiming nothing is wrong, is a losing tactic. Good luck with the ostrich approach.

    The lesson learned in NYC was largely that things were a mess, and cops had almost zero support from the citizens, because trust was gone. Change had to happen from within the force. Bratton changed the CULTURE, and then changed the tactics. Urban police across the country need to look back a few years and realize that they need to be doing the same things.

  • #283230

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    You mean the same New York that uses Stop and Frisk that some of you are so upset about? So other police agencies should use that model?

    They changed the New York crime by being more proactive with their broken windows policy. Do you want those tactics used everywhere? Would seem to contradict what you’re saying in your post.

  • #283312

    tomwaltman
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    BS, Doc. You need to read the massive amount of change management literature that was done by a bunch of schools, the best of which is the Harvard Business Review analysis. Stop and Frisk is a move back to the idiocy that existed before. Bloomberg has been doing that for a while now. Juliani and Bratton had New York as one of the safer large metropolitan areas in the world, now it is sliding back to the abyss, because bureaucrats have taken over that watch the mayors polling number rather than crime stats…

  • #283265

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 114183 wrote:

    I think interracial marriage is apples and oranges compared to this. Gay marriage is as well. That’s stopping people who have not done anything and keeping them from being happy. The crime issue with cops is very different. In most of the cases the person broke a law, then did something else besides that to make things worse. Behaving in a respectful manner protects everyone.

    If you restrict your attention to the actions of police officers, they are apples and oranges.
    If you pay attention to society’s traditions, they aren’t.
    Officers rely upon the consent of the governed, so it is important to pay attention TO the governed.

  • #283231

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    Broken windows started under Guiliani.

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