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Firefighter arrested by CHP for not moving fire truck

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  • #174481

    EGL Admin
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    Cue the comments from Doclaguna πŸ™‚

    I’ve never heard of something like this happening. It should really never come to this. Seems pretty silly.

    http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/02/05/chp-fire-department-make-peace-in-chula-vista-after-testy-exchange-arrest/

    SAN DIEGO (CBSLA.com) β€” A CHP officer handcuffed and detained a Chula Vista firefighter on Tuesday and the incident sparked a heated online debate between police and fire personnel around the country about proper protocol.

    The CHP officer reportedly asked the fireman to move his truck out of the way at a crash scene and when he refused to move the vehicle, he was handcuffed.

    The CHP and fire personnel were aiding victims of a rollover crash on the side of the 805 Freeway.

    Firefighter Jacob Gregoire, a 12-year veteran, was handcuffed on camera.

    β€œI just want to let you all know he’s arresting me,” said Gregoire to reporters.

    The name of the CHP officer who made the arrest has not been released.

    Gregoire could not believe he was being arrested.

    β€œIt’s unbelievable you guys have to treat us like this. We are trying to help you guys,” he is heard saying.

    The officer replies, β€œWe asked you to clear the road, you said β€˜No.’ You are being arrested for not moving.”

    Wednesday, Orange County Fire Authority Captain Steve Concialdi defended their vehicle blocking the accident scene.

    He spoke with CBS2β€²s Stacey Butler at CHP headquarters in San Juan Capistrano.

    β€œThe protocol for the fire department is to protect the scene. When we arrive on these traffic accidents cars are going at a high rate of speed especially at night. We will block lanes to protect our firefighters and our paramedics,” Concialdi said.

    Concialdi said he believed Gregoire acted appropriately .

    β€œMore firefighters and police officers are hurt on the freeway or on the side of a major road than in a gun battle or in a fire,” Concialdi said.

    He could not specifically comment on the San Diego incident but said that after meeting with the Orange County CHP earlier today, to discuss protocol, both agencies agreed to always work together in the future.

    β€œThey have our backs we have their backs. It’s a close knit community,” said Concialdi.

    In a joint statement made with the Chula Vista Fire Department, the CHP wrote, β€œThis was an isolated incident and not representative of the manner in which our agencies normally work together toward our common goal.”

    Concialdi told Butler in 24 years of fire service he’s never heard of a firefighter being arrested for doing his job.

  • #263724

    tomwaltman
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    Sounds like somebody might have just gotten a new contract, and payback is a be-otch. πŸ˜‰

  • #263697

    LC
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    Taking the humor out of it, which isn’t easy, I suppose it depends on who has final authority of the public right of ways. I’d guess it’s the CHP. They probably have more knowledge than the firefighters in that situation. Taking him into custody was a dumbass move, regardless.

  • #263588

    DivotMaker
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    Not the first time it’s happened:

    CHP Officer Cuffs Montecito Fire Battalion Chief

  • #263657

    doclaguna
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    I saw a couple of these donut chompers sitting at Peet’s today in their cute little uniforms, looking like the buttons were about to pop off the front. They reminded me of the fat baseball managers who squeeze into the baseball uniforms…

    Isn’t there some fitness standard for law enforcement? I tell you never on the worst day of my life could one of these chumps run me down. I mean figuratively, not literally. They could literally run me down and suffer no consequences.

  • #263589

    DivotMaker
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    @doclaguna 92378 wrote:

    Isn’t there some fitness standard for law enforcement?

    There’s a CHP officer that patrols HWY 99 on a motorcycle, he’s gotta be 300 pounds or more. Every time we see him that’s the first thing I think of. There’s NO way this guy could pass any fitness test.

  • #263658

    doclaguna
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    @divotmaker 92380 wrote:

    There’s a CHP officer that patrols HWY 99 on a motorcycle, he’s gotta be 300 pounds or more. Every time we see him that’s the first thing I think of. There’s NO way this guy could pass any fitness test.

    And he’ll be retired at 50 on medical disability for bad knees or a bad back…

  • #263725

    tomwaltman
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    Um, not to take away your fun, but I used to look like a porker in my uniform with body armor and a bunch of comms gear. At that point I could run you down pretty easy. Even in the armor. But I would have to get you in the first 5 K. After that, the weight took a toll. Still paying that toll on my knees.

  • #263659

    doclaguna
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    @tomwaltman 92382 wrote:

    Um, not to take away your fun, but I used to look like a porker in my uniform with body armor and a bunch of comms gear. At that point I could run you down pretty easy. Even in the armor. But I would have to get you in the first 5 K. After that, the wieght took a toll. Still paying that toll on my knees.

    Do they make the body armor especially thick around the gut and the ass?

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]1558[/ATTACH]

  • #263726

    tomwaltman
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    Well… That is some serious padding if not armor.

  • #263590

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    @divotmaker 92380 wrote:

    There’s a CHP officer that patrols HWY 99 on a motorcycle, he’s gotta be 300 pounds or more. Every time we see him that’s the first thing I think of. There’s NO way this guy could pass any fitness test.

    I think I know him. His kids go to the same school as ours. He’s a big dude. Probably 275-300. Not sure he can pass any type of fitness test. He’s had a couple of wrecks at least and was off work for awhile each time. Super nice guy though. He’s not chasing anyone down.

  • #263762

    ErinO
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    @lc 92375 wrote:

    Taking the humor out of it, which isn’t easy, I suppose it depends on who has final authority of the public right of ways. I’d guess it’s the CHP. They probably have more knowledge than the firefighters in that situation. Taking him into custody was a dumbass move, regardless.

    Yeah, but it wasn’t about public right of way. It was about securing the scene and making the accident site safe for first responders to do their jobs. He didn’t park the fire truck in the road to block traffic just for the fun of it. He did so to provide a traffic break and protect the lives of those attending to the accident. I think firefighters have more knowledge in that situation. This just boils down to a police officer who isn’t accustomed to having his authority challenged and when he did, he had a tantrum and arrested a firefighter. Imagine how he abuses his power when it’s just an average citizen he’s interacting with, off camera. Time to find a job that better suits him, perhaps as a lion trainer.

  • #263698

    LC
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    Maybe, I don’t know. I wasn’t there, and feel it’s difficult to draw conclusions from a 15 record video.

  • #263660

    doclaguna
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    I can’t imagine in any scenario an excuse for a donut eater to treat a firefighter this way. Might it get heated? Yeah. But to put someone in cuffs?

  • #263641

    adiffer
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    I’m sure the various bosses above those folks will have to work this out now. Should make for some interesting conversations and then charges get dropped.

  • #263591

    EGL Admin
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    Yeah I would think. It’s never good when these agencies go at it and have a pissing match. It is funny though and underscores the attitude and ego that a lot of them have. They do feel they are above the rules/laws at times.

  • #263642

    adiffer
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    Don’t we all? 8)

    I just watch the speeders on the highway to know this.

  • #263741

    sea
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    @doclaguna 92412 wrote:

    I can’t imagine in any scenario an excuse for a donut eater to treat a firefighter this way. Might it get heated? Yeah. But to put someone in cuffs?

    Ok, minus the juvenile name-calling, I actually agree with DL on this one.

    I’m also in agreement (again, minus the school yard names) about how heavy so many officers seem to be these days. Back in the day there was a physical fitness test every year, now it’s only upon academy graduation or upon hiring. Many are very young and very obese. Frankly, it’s embarrassing.

    To be fair, I see many obese firefighters too.

  • #263727

    tomwaltman
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    Okay, knock it off or people will think you actually don’t dispise each other. That would be a shame.

  • #263592

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    @adiffer 92431 wrote:

    Don’t we all? 8)

    I just watch the speeders on the highway to know this.

    Yes, but if one of us gets caught, we don’t get let go out of professional courtesy, or get a free ride home if we are drinking and driving.

  • #263728

    tomwaltman
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    Oh, no, you will get a free ride if pickup up while drinking a driving. And you may well call where you are going home, at least for a while. πŸ˜‰

  • #263742

    sea
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    @EGL Admin 92440 wrote:

    Yes, but if one of us gets caught, we don’t get let go out of professional courtesy, or get a free ride home if we are drinking and driving.

    I know you wouldn’t know this, because you’re not on the inside of the “pervasive culture”, but the free ride home for drinking and driving turned into a free ride to the klink about 10-15 years ago. There are no breaks for that.

    As far as getting warnings when caught speeding, that may happen, and it may not happen. Of course, I’ve given more warnings than speeding tickets to all the regular citizens I’ve stopped, and I know several officers who have received speeding tickets. So……

  • #263661

    doclaguna
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    Tom, I don’t despise many. But the honest truth is if you want a friend who will constantly engage you in a ego massaging circle jerk, I am not your huckleberry.

  • #263662

    doclaguna
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    As far as why there is no fitness testing – my guess is its yet another union issue.

    The problem is when you offer these massive pensions and it’s easy as hell to get disability, hell yes there should be fitness testing and anyone who cannot pass should be sent packing…

  • #263743

    sea
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    @doclaguna 92448 wrote:

    As far as why there is no fitness testing – my guess is its yet another union issue.

    The problem is when you offer these massive pensions and it’s easy as hell to get disability, hell yes there should be fitness testing and anyone who cannot pass should be sent packing…

    Yes, it’s too bad you can’t find people who want to do the job for peanuts and can also pass a psych, background and poly. And can read and write. And haven’t done drugs. The pension issue has changed, and will continue to change. That’s a good thing.

    I’ve stayed physically fit and they forced me out because of my injury. The doctors made that decision. I wouldn’t say it’s been easy.

  • #263744

    sea
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    Looks like everyone has kissed and made up:

    Calif. cops, firefighters make peace after arrest.

    Los Angeles Times

    CHULA VISTA, Calif. β€” Officials of the California Highway Patrol and the Chula Vista Fire Department moved Wednesday to smooth over “an unfortunate incident” in which a CHP officer handcuffed a firefighter at a freeway accident Tuesday night.

    The officer had ordered the firefighter to move a fire truck because he felt it was unsafely blocking a lane of traffic at the scene of a collision on Interstate 805.

    The firefighter refused, saying he needed to confer with his captain. The CHP officer handcuffed the firefighter and put him in the back of a patrol car, where he remained for about 30 minutes. No arrest was made.

    The incident was caught on film and shown on local television.

    On Wednesday, fire Chief Dave Hanneman and CHP Chief Jim Abele met to discuss the incident. After the meeting, neither side admitted fault but the two issued a joint statement expressing “utmost respect for each other and our respective missions. This was an isolated incident….”

    The two said the incident “will be a topic of future joint training sessions, in an ongoing effort to work more efficiently together.”

    The fire truck had arrived at the scene of the accident before the CHP. The driver, a 12-year veteran of the fire department, parked behind an ambulance that was loading patients for transport to a hospital. The CHP officer felt the truck was causing a road hazard.

    Copyright 2014 Los Angeles Times

    McClatchy-Tribune News Service”

  • #263593

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    That’s a good idea. Just looks bad when they have their pissing matches like that.

  • #263663

    doclaguna
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    @sea 92449 wrote:

    Yes, it’s too bad you can’t find people who want to do the job for peanuts and can also pass a psych, background and poly. And can read and write. And haven’t done drugs. The pension issue has changed, and will continue to change. That’s a good thing.

    I’ve stayed physically fit and they forced me out because of my injury. The doctors made that decision. I wouldn’t say it’s been easy.

    So basically you are saying the skill set you need is the ability to read and write and not do drugs. Quite the vigorous standards. No wonder we pay them six figures with ridiculous pensions…

  • #263745

    sea
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    @doclaguna 92485 wrote:

    So basically you are saying the skill set you need is the ability to read and write and not do drugs. Quite the vigorous standards. No wonder we pay them six figures with ridiculous pensions…

    And pass a written, physical agility, medical, psych, polygraph and background. The background alone eliminates hoards of candidates on credit alone. Then an academy, then field training, etc. Even with all that a few assholes get through. Imagine if other professions had to go through that. It seems that academic candidates have little life experience and common sense. A lot of the college grads these days seem to have very poor credit and financial responsibility, and very few haven’t done drugs. Very good candidates come from the military, but not all can pass a psych…..
    If it’s so easy, and has such great pay and benefits, why doesn’t everyone do it?

    Anyhow, we’ve discussed this before. You know all about law enforcement, I mean you’ve spent your career in it, right? No? Oh, well you know it all anyway. After all, you said so.

  • #263643

    adiffer
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    If they are still screening out people for some of the ‘softer’ drugs they aren’t going to get enough people. Times are changing and I suspect there will be pressure to change that. Same with credit issues considering the disaster that was 2009.

    We saw some of that in my field and had to be flexible. Poor credit should raise warning flags, but sometimes those are false positives.

    I’m sure a lot more than literacy and a drug test are required, though. There are far too many laws and I can’t imagine how people keep them straight enough to enforce them. 8)

  • #263594

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    @doclaguna 92485 wrote:

    So basically you are saying the skill set you need is the ability to read and write and not do drugs. Quite the vigorous standards. No wonder we pay them six figures with ridiculous pensions…

    I think it is a pretty stressful job. Not everyone wants to do it. Not everyone can do it. They are a target. Think about how many parolees are there or people who have a warrant and they don’t want to go back to jail? It would be like you going in to do what you thought was a routine examination but every single time you walk in you have to be prepared your patient might be armed and shoot you.

    I don’t know, I’m kind of almost thinking that you’re a little jealous of what they make and their retirement and they have no student loan debt. Here you went to college all those years, busted your ass, took on debt and when you retire you get what you put in. But you’ve always said don’t be jealous of what others have.

    If I could go back 30 years I would have been a firefighter in Elk Grove. Not that it’s super easy because I know it’s not calk walk and it does it take a toll mentally but I could have retired last year with 30 years, great benefits and pension and then I could do something else part time to stay active. Their schedule right now is pretty good. 2 days on and 4 off. Again not saying it’s easy but I know some fire fighters and if they could do it then it’s not that hard.

  • #263664

    doclaguna
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    I care what LE makes because I pay their salaries and benefits. Our taxes are about to be raised yet again to fund the shortcoming in the teacher’s pension. Is it jealousy? No. It called being a fiscal conservative. Something SEA can lay ZERO claim to. This is not the free market. These salaries are inflated by the unholy alliance between public employee unions and Democratic politicians. We could drop them 20% across the board and have ZERO problems keeping the jobs filled.

  • #263595

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    I kind of disagree that a fiscal conservative can’t be a cop. If I take a job and I am promised X and when I retire I will get X%, then it’s not really my problem to figure out how they get there. I think we are blaming the wrong people. You’re blaming someone for taking something is like blaming an athlete for taking $5 million to sit on the bench. If someone wants to pay it, hell yeah I would take it. We should be mad at the idiots who made these deals in the first place. It was being done everywhere by all the cities and government agencies. Did no one see that this would come to fruition? Were they all using bad formulas or just kicking the can down the road.

    Honestly I don’t begrudge cops and government workers for wanting what they were promised. They just have to realize now that the time is coming for when this is going to have to change and what they were planning on having at retirement might not be there. So I would disagree that SEA can’t lay claim top being a fiscal conservative. What is she supposed to go lone wolf and sacrifice herself and family to appease others? I don’t think so. This doesn’t disqualify them. What is it that you always say? It’s about choices. You made a choice to do what you know, knowing that you would be making good money and paying taxes. It’s not like taxes just went up under Obama. The tax rates haven’t changed that much since you decided to become a doctor have they? A fiscal conservative could say, hey let’s stop paying for illegal immigrants and we can fund that deficit in a matter of years. Isn’t it costing California at least $10 billion a year to take care of illegals? I would rather give that to people who have worked and earned it.

  • #263665

    doclaguna
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    OK, Doc. Let me simplify it once again.

    No professional athlete is dipping into my pocket to get that 5 million. The same cannot be said about overpaid government employees.

    As far as not blaming the individual cop who takes advantage of the system they claim to be against? Well there is a word for someone who says one thing and does another. It starts with an H and end with a crite. If I quit my job and took one of these cush prison doc jobs for twice the pay, all the while claiming to be a small government fiscal conservative, you could freely call me a hypocrite as well.

  • #263666

    doclaguna
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    And Doc, I know you don’t actually disagree with me. You are just being polite and chivalrous.

  • #263596

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    If you did that and it was better for you financially and for your family, then I would say do it.

    As far as hypocrisy, we are all hypocrites in one or another. You can be against big government and government waste and be a retired cop and be a fiscal conservative. It doesn’t mean you take a vow of poverty. So in order to gain your approval should she renounce her retirement? Your requirements and standards are not the same as everyone else’s though. A lot of people disagree with you that you can’t be a fiscal conservative if you take a government pension. I would put taking care of myself and my family over the opinion of anyone else every day of the week. It’s not like it’s stealing. They were given a promise they would get X for doing Y. They fulfilled their end of it. They should expect that. Why was this not discussed 20 years ago? We really started hearing about it in the last 10-15 years.

  • #263597

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    @doclaguna 92504 wrote:

    And Doc, I know you don’t actually disagree with me. You are just being polite and chivalrous.

    I disagree with parts of it. I’m not saying we have to pay them what they are getting. The reality is we can’t. It has to and will change. Where I disagree I think is with the characterization of them. Not all or even most are fat donut eaters. The ones I see in the Egpd aren’t anyway.

  • #263667

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 92505 wrote:

    If you did that and it was better for you financially and for your family, then I would say do it.

    As far as hypocrisy, we are all hypocrites in one or another. You can be against big government and government waste and be a retired cop and be a fiscal conservative. It doesn’t mean you take a vow of poverty. So in order to gain your approval should she renounce her retirement? Your requirements and standards are not the same as everyone else’s though. A lot of people disagree with you that you can’t be a fiscal conservative if you take a government pension. I would put taking care of myself and my family over the opinion of anyone else every day of the week. It’s not like it’s stealing. They were given a promise they would get X for doing Y. They fulfilled their end of it. They should expect that. Why was this not discussed 20 years ago? We really started hearing about it in the last 10-15 years.

    I would have to look myself in the eye in the morning and know my gain was on the back of my fellow taxpayers. Sorry, I’m not that dude. I have a sense of what my value is, and double what I get paid in the private sector to attend to prison inmates is not that.

  • #263699

    LC
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    Apparently docl is not alone in his resistance to working for the CDC, because those jobs are never fully filled and readily available. That could lead one to believe that the salary, approximately $250,000, is at or below the level needed to attract qualified applicants.

    With some admitted bias, I think education is one area in California public employment where the salaries are in line with the qualifications and output; they are neither too low or too high, on balance. The problem is that there are many educators at all levels who are probably worth more or worth less than the compensation; the teachers unions have a roadblock to any sort of merit pay. Typically, the non-unionized administration follows the union policies and contract negotiations.

    As to the pensions, and as a soon to be expected beneficiary of them, they are a good deal for the recipient as are the state worker pensions. Anyone complaining is a jackass.

    With that said, that’s the deal that was made, just like the cops and firefighters made their deal when they were hired. If that’s the reason they took the job, so what. It was on the table and they took it. It’s not right to change the deal once it’s been made. Change it for new hires, not those with whom an agreement has been established.

    Further, some oversight into CalPERS and STRS is sorely needed. CalPERS has had some outright corruption problems, and STRS has been a loose cannon with some investments because they see the State Constitution as the safety net–regardless of their investments, the pensions get paid. Now we know that might not happen. It’s not the fault of the beneficiaries. It’s the felony poor planning and investment strategies of the pension fund managers.

  • #263668

    doclaguna
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    Again, my problem again is not that people accept pensions and salaries out of line with their contributions/qualifications. My problem is when the same person would paint themselves as a fiscal conservative. Embrace the fact you got one over on the taxpayer, and plan your double or triple dip into the system…

  • #263719

    newmom
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    @lc 92511 wrote:

    Apparently docl is not alone in his resistance to working for the CDC, because those jobs are never fully filled and readily available. That could lead one to believe that the salary, approximately $250,000, is at or below the level needed to attract qualified applicants.

    With some admitted bias, I think education is one area in California public employment where the salaries are in line with the qualifications and output; they are neither too low or too high, on balance. The problem is that there are many educators at all levels who are probably worth more or worth less than the compensation; the teachers unions have a roadblock to any sort of merit pay. Typically, the non-unionized administration follows the union policies and contract negotiations.

    As to the pensions, and as a soon to be expected beneficiary of them, they are a good deal for the recipient as are the state worker pensions. Anyone complaining is a jackass.

    With that said, that’s the deal that was made, just like the cops and firefighters made their deal when they were hired. If that’s the reason they took the job, so what. It was on the table and they took it. It’s not right to change the deal once it’s been made. Change it for new hires, not those with whom an agreement has been established.

    Further, some oversight into CalPERS and STRS is sorely needed. CalPERS has had some outright corruption problems, and STRS has been a loose cannon with some investments because they see the State Constitution as the safety net–regardless of their investments, the pensions get paid. Now we know that might not happen. It’s not the fault of the beneficiaries. It’s the felony poor planning and investment strategies of the pension fund managers.

    I agree with this and agree this is a major problem. The good teachers earn just as much as the bad teachers. The bad teachers don’t deserve the high pay and benefits they receive, and the great teachers deserve more than they receive, however merit is something the unions refuse to accept. No union will ever admit that some people work harder and are better employees than others, because the unions protect the underperforming. If merit pay were introduced, I think people would think differently of their teaches. However, the fact also exists that different teachers have different teaching methods, and each student responds differently. I’ve seen with my daughter that some years the teacher’s methods are highly effective for her and the work is a breeze, with other years she has to work harder at home to understand the material, while other students handle it with ease. Do I think teachers can do more to reach out to their students who might need a little more? Yes. Some do, and some don’t. That is the difference between the great teachers and the bad teachers.

  • #263700

    LC
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    @doclaguna 92512 wrote:

    Again, my problem again is not that people accept pensions and salaries out of line with their contributions/qualifications. My problem is when the same person would paint themselves as a fiscal conservative. Embrace the fact you got one over on the taxpayer, and plan your double or triple dip into the system…

    I think every taxpayer should, in general, take advantage of every lawful expense offset to income, even though for every dollar taken, that is “on the backs” of the taxpayer.

    I also believe that public employees should, in general, take advantage of any lawful benefit available to them, even though for every dollar earned, that is “on the backs” of the taxpayer.

    Both are operating in a framework of legality, and each takes money from the taxpayers. If we disagree, then laws can be changed.

  • #263669

    doclaguna
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    @lc 92514 wrote:

    I think every taxpayer should, in general, take advantage of every lawful expense offset to income, even though for every dollar taken, that is “on the backs” of the taxpayer.

    I also believe that public employees should, in general, take advantage of any lawful benefit available to them, even though for every dollar earned, that is “on the backs” of the taxpayer.

    Both are operating in a framework of legality, and each takes money from the taxpayers. If we disagree, then laws can be changed.

    Yeah, no, your analogy is wrong.

    If I take advantage of a tax break and get to keep another 10 dollars I earned, that is not the same as taking 10 dollars from the taxpayer. If you actually believe that, you better turn in your fiscal con card as well, because what you are saying is all our earnings belong to the state, and they are magnanimous in giving some back to us.

    The state employee who takes advantage of a wildly flawed system is part of the problem, plain and simple. So when it collapses, like it is in Detroit, don’t expect me to shed a tear. These ex-cops who have been retired in Florida for 40 years on a fat pension can eat dog food for all I care.

  • #263701

    LC
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    And for every dollar they earn through “dipping,” they pay taxes on that income. The analogy is pretty straight forward when you look at the flow of taxpayer dollars. The only difference is the public employee’s income is paid by taxpayer dollars. Again, if we object, then we can change the laws.

  • #263670

    doclaguna
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    @lc 92516 wrote:

    And for every dollar they earn through “dipping,” they pay taxes on that income. The analogy is pretty straight forward when you look at the flow of taxpayer dollars. The only difference is the public employee’s income is paid by taxpayer dollars. Again, if we object, then we can change the laws.

    I have no problem with anyone public or private using tax codes. But I also think its insanity to tax someone whose income comes 100% from taxes. It’s redundant. Pay them less… Avoid the bureaucracy.

    I would like to change the laws that let LE fleece the public, but you and I know that this will never happen in California. The unholy alliance of public employee unions and Democrats will eventually kill the Golden Goose. There is nothing I can do to stop this. When I’m tired of it, I will move. Until then I reserve the right to call out hypocrisy. If you think you earned a benefit package worth millions in 20 years of work, you are deluding yourself. Even I can’t save enough to fund a 401K in that matter.

  • #263729

    tomwaltman
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    Legal, moral, and just plain “the right thing” are all very different concepts.

    While the current pension system is legal, it is immoral and definitely not “the right thing.”

    Those chosing to take advantage of the current pension system are acting legally and being morally acceptable, but I don’t believe they are doing “the right thing” if they believe in smaller government and fiscal conservatism. You make that stand and live it, or you give it lip service.

    I do not chose to work for the State, even though I have been offered at least two management jobs, because I refuse to take part in a system I believe is not doing “the right thing.” I have to look myself in the mirror every morning. That doesn’t make me any better person, but it helps me sleep at night. I could never work in the current union “state worker” system. I learned many years ago that life is too short to do something you don’t love. I refuse to work for people I don’t like, or in jobs where I don’t get up every morning are look to forward to going to.

    For those who love their State jobs, not just the pension/benefits, I say “Good for you.” Do what you love and do it well. Make the state a better place for it.

  • #263702

    LC
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    @doclaguna 92518 wrote:

    I have no problem with anyone public or private using tax codes. But I also think its insanity to tax someone whose income comes 100% from taxes. It’s redundant. Pay them less… Avoid the bureaucracy.

    I would like to change the laws that let LE fleece the public, but you and I know that this will never happen in California. The unholy alliance of public employee unions and Democrats will eventually kill the Golden Goose. There is nothing I can do to stop this. When I’m tired of it, I will move. Until then I reserve the right to call out hypocrisy. If you think you earned a benefit package worth millions in 20 years of work, you are deluding yourself. Even I can’t save enough to fund a 401K in that matter.

    I am choosing not to engage in judgment, although I certainly do and I don’t think mine is much different that yours. The words “deserve” or “earned” are judgmental.

    Last year, my daughter in her early 20s, with two years of work experience and a B.A. degree, earned exactly $812 less than my wife, who has an advanced degree and over 30 years of work experience. Is that “fair?” Hell yes! One is being compensated for production, the other is being compensated for a public job for which there is no direct private equivalent so a salary proxy is made, and the unions help keep it up there for sure.

    I would add that the majority of public employees would point to the differences in age, education, and experience and go into a diatribe about the lack of pay equity. That is a bogus, irrational argument, and THAT is what gets to some of us. To my wife’s credit, she mentioned it, kind of rolled her eyes, and smiled. She’s never once said she was underpaid, even though I cannot imagine a more stressful non public safety job than her last one, running a Title I school in a very dangerous area.

    I do maintain that the defined public benefit packages are too rich, have been for a long time, and are unsustainable. Eventually they will be revised to a 401k style plan, I’m sure, or the employees will get another larger deduction for their share of the contribution. They got a good one, starting this year, if that makes you feel any better ;-).

  • #263671

    doclaguna
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    @tomwaltman 92519 wrote:

    Legal, moral, and just plain “the right thing” are all very different concepts.

    While the current pension system is legal, it is immoral and definitely not “the right thing.”

    Those chosing to take advantage of the current pension system are acting legally and being morally acceptable, but I don’t believe they are doing “the right thing” if they believe in smaller government and fiscal conservatism. You make that stand and live it, or you give it lip service.

    I do not chose to work for the State, even though I have been offered at least two management jobs, because I refuse to take part in a system I believe is not doing “the right thing.” I have to look myself in the mirror every morning. That doesn’t make me any better person, but it helps me sleep at night. I could never work in the current union “state worker” system. I learned many years ago that life is too short to do something you don’t love. I refuse to work for people I don’t like, or in jobs where I don’t get up every morning are look to forward to going to.

    For those who love their State jobs, not just the pension/benefits, I say “Good for you.” Do what you love and do it well. Make the state a better place for it.

    So perfectly said.

  • #263672

    doclaguna
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    LC, the trade off for your daughter is her career most likely will have no where near the longevity a public employees has. And unlike your wife, who would have to murder a student to lose her job, your daughter could get shitcanned tomorrow.

  • #263598

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    Again if if is being offered, a person would be crazy not to take it. I don’t see the hypocrisy angle of it. You can choose to hold yourself up to whatever moral values you feel is best for you but that doesn’t mean you’re not a hypocrite in other areas.

  • #263673

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 92526 wrote:

    Again if if is being offered, a person would be crazy not to take it. I don’t see the hypocrisy angle of it. You can choose to hold yourself up to whatever moral values you feel is best for you but that doesn’t mean you’re not a hypocrite in other areas.

    So to be clear if I offer you a job working in a pot clinic, you wouldn’t feel hypocritical telling your kids to stay off drugs? Or I could offer you a job as a porn star, and you can preach monogamy?

  • #263703

    LC
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    @doclaguna 92525 wrote:

    LC, the trade off for your daughter is her career most likely will have no where near the longevity a public employees has. And unlike your wife, who would have to murder a student to lose her job, your daughter could get shitcanned tomorrow.

    Administrators get canned all the time. They work at will, year to year. Some depends on budget, some depends on performance. You’re referring to teachers, I think. Different deal. As to junior’s career, who knows what she’ll be doing in five years. That industry is changing so fast you never know if you have a job from day to day. The good ones don’t worry about it–being able to sell is pretty good job security, and the right kind (mental, not by contract) in my way of thinking.

  • #263599

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    @doclaguna 92529 wrote:

    So to be clear if I offer you a job working in a pot clinic, you wouldn’t feel hypocritical telling your kids to stay off drugs? Or I could offer you a job as a porn star, and you can preach monogamy?

    That’s not the same thing. If I take a job and they offer me $100K and great benefits there’s no hypocrisy.

    You work in a sector that is partially responsible for the problems we face. We have private health insurance and pay $1200 a month for a family of 4 and have to increase our deductibles to keep it at $1200. I took some blood tests last month and I’m going to be out $700 out of pocket. That’s crazy. You’re taking money from the health care industry is no different than someone taking it from the public sector. You work for an industry that is gouging the crap of people. So, really you can’t speak as though you have some type of moral high ground.

  • #263674

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 92553 wrote:

    That’s not the same thing. If I take a job and they offer me $100K and great benefits there’s no hypocrisy.

    You work in a sector that is partially responsible for the problems we face. We have private health insurance and pay $1200 a month for a family of 4 and have to increase our deductibles to keep it at $1200. I took some blood tests last month and I’m going to be out $700 out of pocket. That’s crazy. You’re taking money from the health care industry is no different than someone taking it from the public sector. You work for an industry that is gouging the crap of people. So, really you can’t speak as though you have some type of moral high ground.

    First off, the difference is you went to the lab of your own accord. No one taxed you to death to do it. It’s like you bitching about the price of a King’s ticket.
    Secondly, docs make nothing off the labs. I only get paid for my time and expertise.

  • #263600

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    @doclaguna 92554 wrote:

    First off, the difference is you went to the lab of your own accord. No one taxed you to death to do it. It’s like you bitching about the price of a King’s ticket.
    Secondly, docs make nothing off the labs. I only get paid for my time and expertise.

    But you’re a part of the medical industry. I went to the labs because it’s a good idea to maintain good health, just like going to the doctor or doing routine maintenance on a car. It’s a choice in one sense and not in another. Medical costs have skyrocketed over the last 10 years. Our health insurance has doubled, but that’s only because we have changed our plan over the years to make the premiums less. If we had kept our same plan from 10 years ago it would be at least 3 or 4 times what we paid back then. That’s a back breaker for a lot of people. That’s why so many don’t have insurance. That’s why people put off doctor visits and then have health issues.

    So, what would SEA need to do to appease you (not that she has any desire to do so of course :)) in this situation? Renounce her retirement? I am not sure what you expect. I understand your hypocrisy angle, but that doesn’t eliminate someone from having a belief that fiscally things are screwed up. It’s irrelevant who is paying the bill, taxpayers or private business. No one was complaining about the benefits packages bankrupting cities 20 years ago. If I sign up for a job and I am told I will get paid X and then Y when I retire, I feel I am entitled to get that. That was part of the package I signed on for. Why was it offered if it wasn’t going to be there? Again, it was done everywhere. Did anyone say back then it wouldn’t be here in 30 years? It’s a relatively recent phenomena that these retirement packages were going to bankrupt cities. We have heard most about it the last 10 years. I am sure someone mentioned it previously, but it wasn’t widely discussed. So exactly what do you want those people to do at this point? I am not sure I understand what it is you want.

    How much have tax rates increased? When you became a doctor, didn’t you know what you would pay in taxes? How much has it increased? It’s not like it was 10% and then now it’s 50%. It’s always been an issue that people have complained about. No one wants to pay more in taxes.

  • #263675

    doclaguna
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    Doc, sometimes I think you spew as many non-sequiturs as possible and hope one will stick… I’m not asking SEA to give up her retirement. But if she wants to continue to call herself a fiscal conservative I will continue to have a long laugh.

  • #263601

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    I am sure you will. Like everyone else, she has to do what is best for her and her family. It doesn’t mean she and others can’t be a fiscal conservative.

  • #263730

    tomwaltman
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    Soooooo… It doesn’t matter what you do, as long as you say the right things? Um, okay.

  • #263602

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    @tomwaltman 92597 wrote:

    Soooooo… It doesn’t matter what you do, as long as you say the right things? Um, okay.

    I’ll ask you the same question I asked DocL, then a cop/firefighter can’t be a fiscal conservative?

    I’m not sure how it’s doing something wrong to take your retirement that you worked for. Guess we better take away the GI benefits, VA loans and college money veterans get. That’s tax payer subsidies too.

  • #263704

    LC
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    I would not be so quick as to unilaterally turn down any government job. I turned this one down, and have always wondered if that was a mistake.

    In 1975 I was interning at DOT. My boss liked me, except he told me I worked too fast for public service. He called me in one day and said he had something for me. Note: When you’re in the system, things come up that outsiders don’t see.

    The job was a wooden bridge inspector. The territory was the entire state, and the work was to visit every wood bridge and take boring samples to test structural integrity. It paid $35,000, not bad back then.

    What was intriguing was that on July 1 you got your assignment, and you had a year to complete it. It was a set task, and they didn’t care how or when you did it. He said one guy did it in 4 months and took the rest of the year off. He was on the road 100% of the time for those 120 days.

    He was on the interview board and pretty much said the job was mine if I wanted it. I was getting my MBA and i thought it was beneath me. Looking back I could have been in the most beautiful parts of the state, on my own, worked 10-15 hours a day for a few weeks and do something else the rest of the time, including finishing school. Plus, you get the state retirement and benefits. I’m sure I’ve made more money this way but what a cool job and lifestyle!

  • #263731

    tomwaltman
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    Doc, do you have any idea how GI benefits work? obviously not, at least those that my generation had access to. We would have been better off investing the money they took from us on our own. I could have done better in 12 month CDs… But hey, keep swinging. You are bound to hit something at some point.

    What you say and what you do matters. I certainly don’t fault SEA for her career choice nor her benefits or retirement. She is getting what she signed up for, and I dont blame her in any way. Is she a fiscal conservative? I don’t know. Has she worked to change the unsupportable retirement system and how it operates? Again, I don’t know. She might be funding PP’s fight against the unions for all I know. If she is, then she can claim her title. She doesn’t have to give up anything, but acting on your word makes you what you are, even in the smallest ways, not just talking about it. I try not to judge anyone if I don’t know the extent of their activities. In SEA’s case, I give her the benefit of my ignorance. Others, including my relatives, who do NOTHING but yap about the state, but use the system to wring every last dime out of it? Not so much.

  • #263732

    tomwaltman
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    @lc 92610 wrote:

    I would not be so quick as to unilaterally turn down any government job. I turned this one down, and have always wondered if that was a mistake.

    Yeah, there was a federal security job I turned down because of college… I don’t regret it, but I know I would be living a different life right now. πŸ˜‰

  • #263603

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    There is a lot of waste in government going to people who have done nothing to earn it. At least people getting retirement worked for it. I would rather see them get it than giving out free health care and free everything else to people who don’t deserve it.

    This is like blaming athletes for the woes of ownership who overpay athletes and give them guaranteed contracts. It doesn’t matter who is footing the bill. No one forced the cities and counties to agree to these deals. Did they go to the unions and say, these pensions are not going to work because there is no way to pay for them. I just don’t recall hearing these were unsustainable back then.

    Did any of you think 20 years ago that the pension would bust the system?

  • #263604

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    @tomwaltman 92614 wrote:

    Doc, do you have any idea how GI benefits work? obviously not, at least those that my generation had access to. We would have been better off investing the money they took from us on our own. I could have done better in 12 month CDs… But hey, keep swinging. You are bound to hit something at some point.

    What about benefits now? Getting money towards college, VA loans, other forms of assistance. I am not saying they don’t deserve it or shouldn’t get it, but isn’t that kind of similar? You take a job, in this case the military and you are offered some things if you sign up.

    What you say and what you do matters. I certainly don’t fault SEA for her career choice nor her benefits or retirement. She is getting what she signed up for, and I dont blame her in any way. Is she a fiscal conservative? I don’t know. Has she worked to change the unsupportable retirement system and how it operates? Again, I don’t know. She might be funding PP’s fight against the unions for all I know. If she is, then she can claim her title. She doesn’t have to give up anything, but acting on your word makes you what you are, even in the smallest ways, not just talking about it. I try not to judge anyone if I don’t know the extent of their activities. In SEA’s case, I give her the benefit of my ignorance. Others, including my relatives, who do NOTHING but yap about the state, but use the system to wring every last dime out of it? Not so much.

    So working in other areas as a fiscal conservative, such as welfare fraud or something like that means nothing, unless you work to reform pensions too? LOL. I like how you and Docl are trying to change the criteria to suit yourselves.

    If the benefits were not offered, a lot of people may not have taken the job. When they took the job and were offered those benefits I don’t think anyone said anything about it not working out as far as the math goes. So now, after the fact, you want them to cut off their nose to spite their face to satisfy you, or else they are hypocrites. That has to be the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time. If I was in that situation, my response would be two words. Begins with an F and ends with an F. The last word could either “off” or “yourself”. πŸ™‚

  • #263733

    tomwaltman
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    Actually, yeah. 20 years ago was Gray Davis blowing up the CCPOA contracts. Yes, I would say many of us were aware of the problem back then.

  • #263605

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    Davis was governor 20 years ago? Or as the controller?

  • #263606

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    Even contracts approved in the last 5 years won’t be sustainable.

  • #263676

    doclaguna
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    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/disability-368870-police-retirement.html

    This is a great article about the pervasive attitude in law enforcement. Every little injury is some career ending disability, until of course the chance comes along to double dip elsewhere.

  • #263692

    joy
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    I’m not sure I think anyone who belongs to a union can call themselves a fiscal conservative – at least not in the public sector.

  • #263705

    LC
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    @doclaguna 92635 wrote:

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/disability-368870-police-retirement.html

    This is a great article about the pervasive attitude in law enforcement. Every little injury is some career ending disability, until of course the chance comes along to double dip elsewhere.

    Excellent article. Wouldn’t you agree that pension reform (the problem rather than the symptom) should be the end goal? I’m a lot more concerned about laws and policies that allow someone to receive disability pay for the exact job he’s now doing than the person working that system.

  • #263706

    LC
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    @joy 92636 wrote:

    I’m not sure I think anyone who belongs to a union can call themselves a fiscal conservative – at least not in the public sector.

    Maybe in a right to work state. In a compulsory state it’s hard to use that broad brush.

  • #263607

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    @joy 92636 wrote:

    I’m not sure I think anyone who belongs to a union can call themselves a fiscal conservative – at least not in the public sector.

    Most probably aren’t. Most end up being democrats. But by using your logic then all cops, firefighters etc have to be liberals. I don’t differentiate the jobs in the way some of you are doing by public or private sector. Being a cop doesn’t mean you can’t be a fiscal conservative.

  • #263644

    adiffer
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    I get docl’s point here, but I think it is kind of silly to try to argue someone isn’t a fiscal conservative if they don’t follow his prescription exactly. The Libertarians tend to do that and purge people from their ideological ranks. As a result, they barely measure in the polls when elections come around.

    What we have here is a label (fiscal conservative) where the inner-most core meaning is as docl describes. There are few people who can comfortably claim to be in that umbra. The penumbral meanings, though, are much easier to achieve as they are a little loose and less precise. Most fiscal conservatives reside out there somewhere.

  • #263608

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    I understand his point. I just don’t agree. So if I want to be a cop since I was kid, I can’t be a cop if I am a fiscal conservative? That’s absurd.

    As to his other point about disability I agree to a certain extent. Some cops are scamming the system. A former CHP was arrested a couple of weeks ago for that. One of the cops in the Fullerton case was disabled from the LAPD. A few years ago there was a big thing on CHP chief’s “disease” where they were all the sudden getting disability right before retirement.

  • #263693

    joy
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    My point is that unions cannot be the devil except for the ones negotiating your contract. That seems hypocritical. Kind of like being all anti-illegals except for the ones that do your yard and clean your house.

  • #263677

    doclaguna
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    @joy 92685 wrote:

    My point is that unions cannot be the devil except for the ones negotiating your contract. That seems hypocritical. Kind of like being all anti-illegals except for the ones that do your yard and clean your house.

    Exactly Joy. It’s the height of hypocrisy. Now I’m going to smoke a bowl, get high, and then preach just say no to my kids.

  • #263609

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    @joy 92685 wrote:

    My point is that unions cannot be the devil except for the ones negotiating your contract. That seems hypocritical. Kind of like being all anti-illegals except for the ones that do your yard and clean your house.

    That’s actually not the same at all. You’re talking about a profession. A way to take care of your family and provide for them and yourself. Not paying someone to do your landscaping. What your saying is that only certain people can do certain jobs and basing it on a political philosophy. That’s absurd. If I want to be a cop since I was a little kid, I can’t because it’s compromising political ideology? That’s like saying women shouldn’t do certain jobs because they physically or mentally aren’t good enough to do them.

    Doclaguna: Exactly Joy. It’s the height of hypocrisy. Now I’m going to smoke a bowl, get high, and then preach just say no to my kids

    .

    Good try, but that’s a fail. Working and taking care of your family is not the same as choosing to do drugs. Lots of jobs offer benefits and pensions. Just because one is private and one is public doesn’t make the person a sellout for doing it. There really aren’t a lot of private police or firefighting jobs. You can get into security consulting after having been a cop. Otherwise the alternative is to be a security guard if you want to be a cop. That’s not the same. As far as it being the height of hypocrisy, the only height here is the height of your hyperbole to try and prove a point. πŸ™‚

    I haven’t seen a person contort themselves so much since Rose Mary Woods.

  • #263720

    newmom
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    I have many friends who are as fiscally and socially conservative as they some and yet they are teachers. They dislike everything abut their union, but since they teach in public schools they don’t have a choice.

  • #263707

    LC
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    @newmom 92701 wrote:

    I have many friends who are as fiscally and socially conservative as they some and yet they are teachers. They dislike everything abut their union, but since they teach in public schools they don’t have a choice.

    Back to the right to work states vs. closed shops. Because someone is forced to join a union doesn’t make them a nanny state liberal or a hypocrite. If one lives in a communist country, that alone does not make them a believer in communism. Does China have more people leaving or entering the country? Can you link to a news story about U.S. citizens risking their lives in a small boat to live in Cuba? While the majority of public employees are Democrats because the party agenda is their job security, thousands are not and are as fiscally responsible as any other conservative. They work for the government because their skills line up with the position, or because they need the money or that position offers the best comp package for them.

    If someone told me they’d never work a public job, even if they needed the income to survive, I’d question their priorities, especially to their family.

  • #263610

    EGL Admin
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    These were negotiated contracts done by lawyers and financial people. It’s not like they are stealing. This was mutually agreed upon by both sides. Not everyone in a union likes being in the union but if you want a certain profession you have no choice. A doctor accusing anyone of hypocrisy when their industry is as much to blame as anyone for high costs is pretty funny. When a simple doctor visit costs hundreds of dollars for 15 minutes.

  • #263721

    newmom
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    Yep. These are folks who wanted to be teachers growing up, and they are great teachers and love their jobs. They can’t help abut their union and they do what they can to limit its power but there isn’t much they can do.

  • #263708

    LC
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    @EGL Admin 92705 wrote:

    A doctor accusing anyone of hypocrisy when their industry is as much to blame as anyone for high costs is pretty funny. When a simple doctor visit costs hundreds of dollars for 15 minutes.

    I am learning about the chain of products and services in healthcare. I don’t know much yet, but it’s pretty clear doctors and their fees are the least of the problems. Docs directly employed by an HMO, PPO, or hospital don’t set their fees. They do get a “commission” for certain tests and work unless it’s Kaiser; they don’t there. Pharma companies negotiate with insurance underwriters to set the covered prices. Medical device and supply companies have a quiet but large lobby to keep prices up and foreign competition out. Hospitals are terribly expensive, but a much larger percentage of their income comes from the government that we’d imagine–courtesy being stiffed by turnips–and they can wait a year or more for reimbursement.

    If you go to the public companies and look at their I/Es and balance sheets, it’s hard to see who’s making what; all the net profits seem fairly light except for pharma and device companies but their accounting is different and they often have short product cycles. Insurance companies show a net of about 2%. I tend to believe a lot of the fat is in the devices and hospitals rather than the physicians and (most popular) the insurers.

  • #263734

    tomwaltman
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    Yeah, I know several teachers that are “fiscal conservatives,” but send their kids to private schools are get very upset when you talk about those horrible unions and curtailing benefits and pensions. Of course they are “fiscal conservatives.” For you and me, not for themselves…

    Those that OWN their loyalty to the union and the things it brings them are at least honest. I do know a few of them as well, and I have great respect for their honesty.

  • #263678

    doclaguna
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    That’s my whole point, Tom, which is clear to everyone other than Doc. The hypocrisy comes not from being a cop. It comes from being a cop, claiming to be a fiscal con, yet milking the system every which way possible because you can.

    As far as your lame attempts at drawing a parallel with medicine. First off, the actual fees a doctor gets for consultation is not out of line for the amount of education we have. We are not talking about 18 months of cop school. Most of us have 11-15 or more years of college, med school, residency training. I also don’t see the parallel because I’m not a public employee. I have to pay my overhead, I have to pay my malpractice insurance. I have to pay my staff. I have to pay for supplies, vaccines. I have to fund my own 401k. And here is the clincher. Like anyone else who owns a small business, just like you and your wife, if I don’t work I don’t get paid. There is no paid vacation. There is no paid disability. I have zero incentive to claim disability and retire at 50. And that’s where I see the corruption in LE culture. There is no incentive NOT to claim disability at every chance. There is NO incentive to not retire young, and then double dip and leave the state that was so generous to you.

  • #263709

    LC
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    @doclaguna 92711 wrote:

    As far as your lame attempts at drawing a parallel with medicine. First off, the actual fees a doctor gets for consultation is not out of line for the amount of education we have. We are not talking about 18 months of cop school. Most of us have 11-15 or more years of college, med school, residency training.

    Please don’t go there with that approach, because you’re on a real slippery slope. Now you have to attach a much greater value to an English professor with a doctorate. Your fee is not based on your education. It’s based on value provided against what others without your knowledge can provide (little to nothing, so you win).

  • #263679

    doclaguna
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    The problem is that medicine is a quasi-free market. Trust me I wish it was a free market. Doctors would make less but it would be still be a good living, and we would have to deal with less hassles.

    As far as your comparison to an English professor, they should earn more than a cop, no?

  • #263611

    EGL Admin
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    That’s my whole point, Tom, which is clear to everyone other than Doc.

    Apparently it’s not clear to Newmom, LC or Al either. Once again, you’re assuming people don’t understand. I understand your point very well. I just think you’re wrong. I have already explained why and others seem to agree with that. On any topic about cops, I think people take your opinion with a grain of salt because of your over the top anti cop comments. It seems there has to be some jealousy in that regard. You’ve always said don’t be jealous of what another person makes or gets, yet you seem to be quite jealous of what they get.

    The hypocrisy comes not from being a cop. It comes from being a cop, claiming to be a fiscal con, yet milking the system every which way possible because you can.

    So what if a cop isn’t milking the system, which most don’t. Can they be a fiscal con according the Doclaguna Principles of Fiscal Conservatism? Taking benefits that are due to you is not milking the system.

    As far as your lame attempts at drawing a parallel with medicine. First off, the actual fees a doctor gets for consultation is not out of line for the amount of education we have. We are not talking about 18 months of cop school. Most of us have 11-15 or more years of college, med school, residency training.

    You’re worth what someone is willing to pay you. Your 11-15 years of college isn’t why you get paid that much. That’s like saying if I buy a house for $250K and put $250K into it in improvements, it’s worth $500K. No, it’s worth what someone will pay for it. Is the person who is a city manager making $250K deserving of that money? It’s irrelevant. It’s what the market dictates. Being self employed you can make more or less depending on how much you choose to work. There are obviously pros and cons to both sides of the employment world. These people chose what was best for them and what they wanted to do. You chose a profession that required more time in college, was very expensive to get into and then you get the payoff on the other side. I said it before I would love to go back in time, start as a firefighter at 20 and retire at 50 and give all of you the middle finger and not feel once ounce of guilt about what I was getting.

  • #263735

    tomwaltman
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    Yep, fiscal conservatism for others… As long as I get mine, it all good. Doesn’t that sound a little like the limo liberal position?

  • #263694

    joy
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    Doc it’s not what the market dictates when it comes to most unions. It’s what the union dictates. That’s how we end up where we are.

  • #263612

    EGL Admin
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    @joy 92724 wrote:

    Doc it’s not what the market dictates when it comes to most unions. It’s what the union dictates. That’s how we end up where we are.

    That’s a lame excuse.

  • #263613

    EGL Admin
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    @tomwaltman 92720 wrote:

    Yep, fiscal conservatism for others… As long as I get mine, it all good. Doesn’t that sound a little like the limo liberal position?

    Not sure. What’s the market these days on glass houses?

  • #263736

    tomwaltman
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    I claim my biases. You got one I am not admitting?

  • #263614

    EGL Admin
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    Nope. Just saying you guys are throwing a lot of stones. We are all hypocrites in one way or another. You guys don’t set the criteria for what is a fiscal conservative. Basically you guys are saying all civil service employees are ripping off the taxpayers when they get retirement benefits. Does that apply to veterans too? That’s taxpayer funded too isn’t it? Or is that okay? Trying to figure out the wavy lines of where your hypocrisy criteria goes.

  • #263680

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 92725 wrote:

    That’s a lame excuse.

    No it’s the truth. You have 2 parties negotiating favors for each other that a 3rd party has to work and pay for. Like I’ve said a million times, we could fill every cop job with someone just as competent at half the salary.

  • #263737

    tomwaltman
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    So Doc… What IS a fiscal conservative to you? I am interested in this one now.

    As to the lame excuse bit… How many union contracts would be approved if voters had any say in the approval? What would you think would happen if there was a State Constitutional requirement to put any union contract before the voters who have to pay for it? Come on, hazard a guess.

  • #263681

    doclaguna
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    Tom you and I should negotiate with Doc’s employees what they get paid. For a fee of course. His employees can kick us back some of their salary. If the salary and pension packet we negotiate is too much for Doc’s business to continue to operate, oh well. You can’t blame his employee.

  • #263615

    EGL Admin
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    So unions have never been broken or forced to take concessions? If things were so bad why didn’t the employer go to the public and say this would break the bank? You want to blame the people who had nothing to do with it. Blame the government agencies who agreed with it. As I said before it’s like blaming the players because owners gave them millions of dollars.

    So what would be a fair retirement in your opinion?

  • #263616

    EGL Admin
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    @tomwaltman 92733 wrote:

    So Doc… What IS a fiscal conservative to you? I am interested in this one now.

    As to the lame excuse bit… How many union contracts would be approved if voters had any say in the approval? What would you think would happen if there was a State Constitutional requirement to put any union contract before the voters who have to pay for it? Come on, hazard a guess.

    I know there is no one who is a fiscal conservative all the time.

    So what about veterans Tom? Can you be a fiscal conservative and a veteran? If so, how is it different?

    So that’s the employees fault? So they should take less money to appease your self righteous baloney? LOL. That’s funny Tom. You want to cut, start with the losers who do nothing and illegals. Then come after the people who worked and took the job and pay they were given.

  • #263617

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    @doclaguna 92732 wrote:

    No it’s the truth. You have 2 parties negotiating favors for each other that a 3rd party has to work and pay for. Like I’ve said a million times, we could fill every cop job with someone just as competent at half the salary.

    You could say that about any job, including Doctors. You can find people to do it for less. I’m sure they can cut down tuition to make it affordable. Cut back some training and time in the classroom too and not lose anything.

  • #263738

    tomwaltman
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    Doc, you keep wanting to make this about cutting something. That is the biggest, smelliest red herring of all time. I think DL and I have been pretty clear that this is about hypocracy, not taking anything away from anybody. If that makes you feel better about YOUR argument, please continue, but it is YOUR argument, not mine.

  • #263618

    EGL Admin
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    Okay, you still didn’t answer my question about whether this applies to veterans. Or are you afraid it might show your “hypocrisy”? You are the ones trying to take things away. You are saying a person who works in the public sector can’t be a fiscal con based on your criteria that no one else really agrees with. It’s not about trying to screw over the tax payer. It’s about doing a job and taking what is being paid to you. It doesn’t matter whether the employer is a the tax payer, mom and pop or IBM. You do the job, you get paid.

    You guys are the ones trying to cut stuff not me. I also asked what would be a fair amount for retirement and didn’t get an answer to that either. So is all retirement by public employees bad? You guys are the ones trying to tie a person’s political philosophy to their job. Again essentially you are saying that if you grow up wanting to be a teacher, fire fighter or cop, you can’t do that and be a fiscal conservative or risk being called a hypocrite. Do you not see how stupid that is? I am relatively sure that my take on this would garner much more support than yours. You’re trying to limit the pool by what a person thinks politically. It’s not like being against pot and working in a pot store. That’s a little different. That’s generally not something most people aspire to do growing. Wanting to help and protect people is a lot different. You guys already went past the point of no return on this one, so no use turning back. Keep on heading towards that cliff Thelma and Louise. Remember to hold hands as you do. πŸ™‚

    By the way, if you smoke cigarettes or do pot you’re a loser. :stir:

  • #263695

    joy
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    @EGL Admin 92725 wrote:

    That’s a lame excuse.

    No, it’s a fact.

  • #263682

    doclaguna
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    What is the fair amount? Not a dollar over what it takes to adequately fill the position. That’s the free market, Doc.

  • #263696

    joy
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    @EGL Admin 92738 wrote:

    You want to cut, start with the losers who do nothing and illegals. Then come after the people who worked and took the job and pay they were given.

    Those two groups are not mutually exclusive when it comes to many of the unions.

  • #263619

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 92750 wrote:

    What is the fair amount? Not a dollar over what it takes to adequately fill the position. That’s the free market, Doc.

    A dollar amount on the retirement is what I asked.

  • #263620

    EGL Admin
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    @joy 92749 wrote:

    No, it’s a fact.

    Which facts are those?

    And you really have no reason to talk to since you support candidates who support unions.

  • #263683

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 92753 wrote:

    A dollar amount on the retirement is what I asked.

    You just don’t get the free market do you?
    But if you want a starting point:
    No retirement. Contribute to a 401k like the rest of us.

  • #263684

    doclaguna
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    @joy 92751 wrote:

    Those two groups are not mutually exclusive when it comes to many of the unions.

    Man he sounds just like SEA when she deflects.

  • #263645

    adiffer
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    @lc 92712 wrote:

    Please don’t go there with that approach, because you’re on a real slippery slope. Now you have to attach a much greater value to an English professor with a doctorate. Your fee is not based on your education. It’s based on value provided against what others without your knowledge can provide (little to nothing, so you win).

    Heh. Rah, rah!

    Value and Merit should never be mixed. The combination is explosive. 8)

  • #263646

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 92718 wrote:

    Apparently it’s not clear to Newmom, LC or Al either.

    I get his point well enough. I just happen to think that the umbral definition is too narrow to be useful here. Offer up a penumbral example like they asked of you and this discussion might move forward.

    For example, a person who is fiscally conservative for everyone but themselves in certain situations might be a hypocrite, but they are still going to conserve a fair amount of money, aren’t they? As long as what they dish up to themselves is small by comparison, aren’t they useful to have around? What is the value of ideological purity in this case? 8)

  • #263647

    adiffer
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    On the original topic, the firefighter I was talking to tonight said they should have arrested the CHP officer in return. Jurisdiction was clear. 8)

  • #263621

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 92756 wrote:

    You just don’t get the free market do you?
    But if you want a starting point:
    No retirement. Contribute to a 401k like the rest of us.

    When you come back from fantasyland and your $1 over what it takes to the fill the position, let us know. Let’s stick with reality and the reality is none of those positions are filled that way. Very few positions are filled that way unless it’s minimum wage even in the private sector. Private companies are just as guilty of paying too much for some jobs. Free market also means you lose employees to better paying jobs. You really don’t want cops and firefighters jumping from job to job. Some may choose to leave but that’s not good for continuity and being efficient.

    You guys can all whine and complain about how it’s not fair, but you’re the same one bitching when people complain about their jobs and how it’s about choices and if they aren’t happy do something about it. Now you’re complaining because they found something and you don’t like what they are getting. Make up your mind. If it offends you morally or ethically, get over it because I’m pretty sure none of them care that it does. I would be sending you pictures of myself drinking a Mai tai on a beach and say thanks for contributing to my retirement. πŸ™‚

    I’m going to go PP on you for a second and ask what have you done to help solve this problem? Are involved in anyway in anything to fix it, or are you going to just keep banging on the keyboard about it? It seems like it really bothers you a lot. Are you going go just keep bending over and grabbing your ankles?

  • #263622

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 92764 wrote:

    I get his point well enough. I just happen to think that the umbral definition is too narrow to be useful here. Offer up a penumbral example like they asked of you and this discussion might move forward.

    For example, a person who is fiscally conservative for everyone but themselves in certain situations might be a hypocrite, but they are still going to conserve a fair amount of money, aren’t they? As long as what they dish up to themselves is small by comparison, aren’t they useful to have around? What is the value of ideological purity in this case? 8)

    I agree. I just don’t see it the way they do where being a cop or a firefighter means you can’t be a fiscal con. That’s idiotic. What they are doing and receiving for their work is not unethical or immoral. They didn’t negotiate the contracts. If it wasn’t fair, it shouldn’t have been offered. It’s not just one entity that did this. It’s all over the country. You can blame it on unions or whoever, but it’s not the employees fault.

    I’ll ask again, what do you want them to do now? Give it back?

  • #263685

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 92767 wrote:

    When you come back from fantasyland and your $1 over what it takes to the fill the position, let us know. Let’s stick with reality and the reality is none of those positions are filled that way. Very few positions are filled that way unless it’s minimum wage even in the private sector. Private companies are just as guilty of paying too much for some jobs. Free market also means you lose employees to better paying jobs. You really don’t want cops and firefighters jumping from job to job. Some may choose to leave but that’s not good for continuity and being efficient.

    You guys can all whine and complain about how it’s not fair, but you’re the same one bitching when people complain about their jobs and how it’s about choices and if they aren’t happy do something about it. Now you’re complaining because they found something and you don’t like what they are getting. Make up your mind. If it offends you morally or ethically, get over it because I’m pretty sure none of them care that it does. I would be sending you pictures of myself drinking a Mai tai on a beach and say thanks for contributing to my retirement. πŸ™‚

    I’m going to go PP on you for a second and ask what have you done to help solve this problem? Are involved in anyway in anything to fix it, or are you going to just keep banging on the keyboard about it? It seems like it really bothers you a lot. Are you going go just keep bending over and grabbing your ankles?

    Private companies who choose to overpay their employees can do so. 1. It’s not my money. 2. They tend to go out of business.

    I don’t think there is any more point in this discussion as you lack even a rudimentary understanding of economics. Go ahead and count your moral victory in siding with “everything’s gray Al.” LOL.

  • #263722

    newmom
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    For emergency responder positions, it’s legal to establish residency requirements so as to be able to respond in a certain amount of time. Although the purpose is for speed, safety, and efficiency, it serves to eliminate the ability to jump jobs to follow the money. I know several fire fighters in Orange County and they have to live within a certain number of miles of their fire house. They don’t move houses once hired. Guess what? They can’t change agencies either.

  • #263623

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    @doclaguna 92769 wrote:

    Private companies who choose to overpay their employees can do so. 1. It’s not my money. 2. They tend to go out of business.

    I don’t think there is any more point in this discussion as you lack even a rudimentary understanding of economics. Go ahead and count your moral victory in siding with “everything’s gray Al.” LOL.

    Ok Mr. I Hate Cops! Just keep bending over, thank you.

    Sincerely,

    Public employees

  • #263710

    LC
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    @adiffer 92763 wrote:

    Heh. Rah, rah!

    Value and Merit should never be mixed. The combination is explosive. 8)

    You can blame that to a large degree on colleges who for decades have told students that their education sets a minimum value for their labor. It’s just false, and damaging.

    I have one friend who is an electrician. I assume he has a high school education. I don’t know if he’s in the union. His company specializes in electrical for windmills, and they travel all over the west, working contracts with energy providers. His income is higher than most professionals, about equal with a young physician. He’s not paid for his education. He’s paid for very specialized knowledge that cannot easily be duplicated. Your value added, which includes scarcity of labor, is what sets your compensation in the free market.

    Powerful unions do set an artificial floor, no doubt. I don’t see anyone on here supporting them. It’s hard to argue that some cops and firefighters are overpaid with a sweetheart comp package. That doesn’t mean one should refuse the employment on principle, nor does it mean that taking the job makes them any less a fiscal conservative. It’s a good gig. If you’re cut from that cloth, why not?

  • #263711

    LC
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    Can’t speak for him, but I’m guessing what ails docl is his income, education, and cost of entry compared to that of a cop or firefighter. He sees inequity, and I for one would not argue with him, even a little bit. But, does that mean someone opting for the public safety work is wrong or hypocritical? In no way. Maybe they’re the smartest at the table.

  • #263624

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    @lc 92779 wrote:

    Can’t speak for him, but I’m guessing what ails docl is his income, education, and cost of entry compared to that of a cop or firefighter. He sees inequity, and I for one would not argue with him, even a little bit. But, does that mean someone opting for the public safety work is wrong or hypocritical? In no way. Maybe they’re the smartest at the table.

    I agree 100%. I don’t like what they are getting either. But that’s a choice we could all have made. I see no difference in someone being jealous because Docl makes what he makes and him being jealous of what they get in retirement. Thinking that somehow one is more noble a choice isn’t true. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. DocL has capped on the “cubicle monkeys” and put down people who do other jobs who complain about what they do. It’s a choice. I don’t see the hypocrisy that he, Tom and I guess Joy see. If the job is out there where I can support my family and provide for my retirement, who pays for it is irrelevant. No one is forced to pay it. Entities could have refused to pay it and held the line. All they had to do was explain the numbers to the voters and if the unions complained, too bad, then fire them all and start over. As an employee it wouldn’t be my fault that didn’t happen. The idea behind the benefits was money would be set aside and invested I assume to pay for it. If not, then why did anyone agree to it? There must have been some thought that it would pay for itself. of course that was also before health benefits doubled and tripled. So again, we have the medical industry as being a part of this problem. The medical industry is hospitals, doctors and drugs isn’t it? 20 years ago I don’t think anyone knew the health benefits would be this much. Multiply that by every employee and that’s a huge drain too. Not as much as the pensions of course, but it’s a part.

  • #263686

    doclaguna
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    @lc 92779 wrote:

    Can’t speak for him, but I’m guessing what ails docl is his income, education, and cost of entry compared to that of a cop or firefighter. He sees inequity, and I for one would not argue with him, even a little bit. But, does that mean someone opting for the public safety work is wrong or hypocritical? In no way. Maybe they’re the smartest at the table.

    Have you even seen DocL say anything about a pro athlete getting paid too much? Nope. An entertainer? Nope. Some guy who runs his own business? Nope. The issue is not who makes what. It’s the complete and utter disregard to the taxpayer by public employee unions and politicians.
    Again, for the millionth time, by all means be a public employee and milk the system. Just don’t tell me you are a fiscal conservative at the same time.

  • #263648

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 92768 wrote:

    I agree. I just don’t see it the way they do where being a cop or a firefighter means you can’t be a fiscal con. That’s idiotic. What they are doing and receiving for their work is not unethical or immoral. They didn’t negotiate the contracts. [/quote]

    I’ll disagree with you here. I objected to the closed shop nature of a teacher’s union contract with the Los Rios CC District. After thinking about it a bit, I decided not to apply to become a full-timer. I felt that what they had negotiated was unethical and didn’t want to be part of it. I didn’t negotiate it personally, so in a penumbral sense I could avoid the moral attachment, but I felt unclean even thinking about it. Life took a different course for me shortly after that decision.

    Quote:
    If it wasn’t fair, it shouldn’t have been offered.

    Heh. That is a very dangerous way to measure ‘fairness’. It invites rationalizations with open arms.

  • #263712

    LC
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    @adiffer 92785 wrote:

    I’ll disagree with you here. I objected to the closed shop nature of a teacher’s union contract with the Los Rios CC District. After thinking about it a bit, I decided not to apply to become a full-timer. I felt that what they had negotiated was unethical and didn’t want to be part of it. I didn’t negotiate it personally, so in a penumbral sense I could avoid the moral attachment, but I felt unclean even thinking about it.

    When you were laid off your previous job, would you have reconsidered? Bet so.

    Back in 1977 I was making $52 per hour at CSUS. I think that’s about what the PT faculty makes now. I was approached by a rep from the (now defunct I think) United Professors of California to strike for more. I laughed at him. I felt the same way as you–I was earning PLENTY. Still–someone got us to $52 an hour, crazy high, and I was glad to get it and never thought twice about taking it, nor would i today.

  • #263649

    adiffer
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    @lc 92777 wrote:

    You can blame that to a large degree on colleges who for decades have told students that their education sets a minimum value for their labor. It’s just false, and damaging.

    It goes way, way back before Marx and what the colleges are teaching now. It is related to the early philosophical split among enlightenment supporters. The continental version focused more upon equality than liberty. Try defining what equality means in detail and you can easily run down a slope and into the ditch along with Marx. The crux of the problem is measuring equality because you need that to know if people are being treated fairly.

    The philosophical trap sprang on people during the early industrial era and was most obvious during the French Revolution. Our revolution took a more Scottish path and we are better off for it, but the French/German ideas are insidious.

    Quote:
    I have one friend who is an electrician. I assume he has a high school education. I don’t know if he’s in the union. His company specializes in electrical for windmills, and they travel all over the west, working contracts with energy providers. His income is higher than most professionals, about equal with a young physician. He’s not paid for his education. He’s paid for very specialized knowledge that cannot easily be duplicated. Your value added, which includes scarcity of labor, is what sets your compensation in the free market.

    I think this works well enough, but people have a hard time applying it to transactions involving experiences. Service work can be wrapped into ROI, but a fine dining experience is harder to value. I argue that we pay what we pay and don’t really have to understand why. It’s as much a mystery as why we choose certain words over others in complex conversations. Occasionally people spot observable patterns in our decisions (like ROI calculations), but there is no reason to expect the patterns to exist just because the behaviors do.

    Quote:
    Powerful unions do set an artificial floor, no doubt. I don’t see anyone on here supporting them. It’s hard to argue that some cops and firefighters are overpaid with a sweetheart comp package. That doesn’t mean one should refuse the employment on principle, nor does it mean that taking the job makes them any less a fiscal conservative. It’s a good gig. If you’re cut from that cloth, why not?

    I don’t mind unions setting wage and benefit floors. I’d much rather that than minimum wage laws and mandated social support institutions. I only object when they get to write the market rules and they obviously have a spiffy advantage in a majority rules democracy. IF LEO unions can do such things I would support the argument that their members should not be labeled as fiscal conservatives unless they can demonstrate a willingness to fight such things. I suspect their unions can’t, but they can do something just short of it. That’s why I think you all need a few penumbral examples to go along with the umbral one.

  • #263625

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 92783 wrote:

    Again, for the millionth time, by all means be a public employee and milk the system. Just don’t tell me you are a fiscal conservative at the same time.

    and for the millionth time, it’s not milking the system. You seem to confused on that or that’s your interpretation of working and receiving a benefits package at retirement. Really there isn’t too much agreement with your take on the fiscal con part. So is everyone else just wrong or maybe is it that you’re trying to force an interpretation of it on others that doesn’t exist outside of your own mind?

  • #263626

    EGL Admin
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    Taking care of one’s family and self takes precedence over anything else as long as it is done legally. The idea that a cop, firefighter, garbage worker, etc has to feel guilty about doing that because it is taxpayer paid is absurd.

  • #263650

    adiffer
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    @lc 92788 wrote:

    When you were laid off your previous job, would you have reconsidered? Bet so. [/quote]

    In 2009? It never occured to me to try. I quietly steam when I think about how it felt to be on the outside looking in back in the early 90’s. If I had been unemployed longer, though, you might be right. I was only out of work for three months and this is one of those areas where my ego works for me. If I can get an interview with a hiring manager, I am confident I can convince them I’m the best thing since sliced bread. What need do I have to take work that makes me feel unclean? 8)

    The best advice I got from my last advisor in grad school was a line he said when I made it clear I was looking for part-time teaching work and asked if his department was hiring. He told me ‘We would happily take advantage of you for as long as you’ll let us.’ I didn’t pursue anything there and began to look at my employment options in a different light afterwards. He made it clear you HAVE to be on the inside to properly benefit and you have to not mind so much what they do to everyone else. THAT was the reality of the profession for which I had been training all those years, so I don’t think much about going back to it. What I think about instead is competing with them through private channels and my thoughts turn a little vicious and dark when I do.

    Quote:
    Back in 1977 I was making $52 per hour at CSUS. I think that’s about what the PT faculty makes now. I was approached by a rep from the (now defunct I think) United Professors of California to strike for more. I laughed at him. I felt the same way as you–I was earning PLENTY. Still–someone got us to $52 an hour, crazy high, and I was glad to get it and never thought twice about taking it, nor would i today.

    I worked as a part-timer and the pay schedule worked the same as for the full-timers if one measures per hour. What happened is I priced myself out of work when I got the PhD. I made it clear I was perfectly willing to take what I used to take since it wasn’t their requirement to pay me for something they didn’t need, but their contract with the other teachers didn’t permit that. They had no way to negotiate with someone outside the union and appeared to have no motivation either.

  • #263687

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 92793 wrote:

    Taking care of one’s family and self takes precedence over anything else as long as it is done legally. The idea that a cop, firefighter, garbage worker, etc has to feel guilty about doing that because it is taxpayer paid is absurd.

    Legal is not ethical. Your standards are different than mine.

  • #263713

    LC
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    @adiffer 92794 wrote:

    I worked as a part-timer and the pay schedule worked the same as for the full-timers if one measures per hour. What happened is I priced myself out of work when I got the PhD. I made it clear I was perfectly willing to take what I used to take since it wasn’t their requirement to pay me for something they didn’t need, but their contract with the other teachers didn’t permit that. They had no way to negotiate with someone outside the union and appeared to have no motivation either.

    That’s crazy, but it’s the same thing in K-12. I applied to develop and teach a course a few years ago at SJUSD Adult Ed, and asked for $1 a year salary. Their wheels came off. I think some principals who get a doctorate (real or degree mill, doesn’t matter for pay scale) are having a hard time getting a higher position because the district has to pay them more.

    Other than being a criminal defense attorney, that’s another job I could never do–run a degree mill, or attend one as a student or teacher. I worked for National University for a year and I don’t even put it on my CV because it’s embarrassing. Even though a lot of teachers go there for their credential, thinking a credential is a credential, not all hiring administrators view it that way. My gripe is in public employment a degree from USC is equal to Boyle Heights College of Professional Development as long as they have minimal accreditation.

  • #263651

    adiffer
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    Yah.

    I’m supportive of rules that prevent adminstration from negotiating away certain things a bit like what we are seeing in NC right now, but I don’t know how to get them to negotiate on our behalf properly. If I had asked my Dean who he worked for he probably would have said the college, but nowadays I would point out that such an answer describes ‘what’ and NOT ‘who’. Ultimately they work for us, but they aren’t negotiating for us. The same could be said of public employee union members, but no one expects their unions to negotiate for us. That burden rests with management.

  • #263627

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 92795 wrote:

    Legal is not ethical. Your standards are different than mine.

    That’s possibly true. I understand that we are ALL hypocrites in way or another. In this case I think you’re way off on the hypocrisy angle but you don’t want to see it. You can’t separate the job from the person and you’re lumping bad with the good and considering it all bad as a result. Unless every part of your life is ethical and beyond reproach and you’re the best person you can be, then you’re a hypocrite and flawed like everyone else. Saying a person can’t be a fiscal conservator and a cop or firefighter is just incorrect. That’s why I say you and Tom should be careful with those rocks. Stuff comes around and at some point you’ll understand that. It’s easy to say stuff but different when you have to face it. You’ll learn that with age.

  • #263628

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 92795 wrote:

    Legal is not ethical. Your standards are different than mine.

    When you decided to be a doctor did you feel at that time that public employees were a bunch of teat suckers and screwing the taxpayers? I’m going to guess you probably didn’t feel that way back then. What you’re doing is judging a person by their cover not who they are. Really no different than judging someone by their race or gender.

  • #263739

    tomwaltman
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    @EGL Admin 92753 wrote:

    A dollar amount on the retirement is what I asked.

    Don’t know and don’t care for anyone else. That is their business. Again, I am not asking for anyone’s retirement or benefits to be cut. THAT, AGAIN, is YOUR argument, not mine.

    The Vets piece? I am not getting any Vet services, so don’t have a clue why you think I would care. If you think they should be cut, then fire away. Do I think they are hypocrits for taking the benefits? I don’t know any Vets you call themselves fiscal conservatives, but if they are, then they are in the same boat. Like I said, for all you or I know, these people could be fighting against the crazy pension systems in ways we can’t see, so I won’t label THEM anymore than I would label SEA.

  • #263629

    EGL Admin
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    Well good for you for adding some wood and stucco to that glass house. πŸ™‚

  • #263740

    tomwaltman
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    I posted that stuff two days ago as well, but you didn’t seem to notice…

  • #263746

    politicopedro
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    @doclaguna 92412 wrote:

    I can’t imagine in any scenario an excuse for a donut eater to treat a firefighter this way. Might it get heated? Yeah. But to put someone in cuffs?

    More and more my concern grows regarding the often excessive actions of police officers – the result in this instance are simply embarrassment, but too often the results are lethal.

    Recognizing that they face unique circumstances is one thing, but then I did a little research. It seems that termination of officers with a history of blatant excessive force, even if resulting in death or serious injury, is relatively rare. Even more infrequent is prosecution for the incident.

    We entrust peace officers with such enormous power – the power to take a citizen’s freedom, or even take lives. Violation of that trust should not be a LESSER crime, it should be a far, far greater crime. The average police officer in California now makes $100K per year, with unprecedented pension, healthcare and injury benefits. We spend nearly $200K per officer annually, and invest nearly $1 million in training and equipment over the average 20 year career. Given all that, I think we can – and must – hold them to a much, much higher standard. “They’re only human” doesn’t cut it when we entrust them with such power… “don’t do anything wrong and you won’t have to worry about it…” doesn’t add up when, with greater and greater frequency, we see people who were minding their own business and were in the wrong place, or mistaken for the wrong person…

    I’m going to begin exploring a reform that makes abuse by Peace Officer a “mandatory reporting” crime, require “names redacted” public review of those reports, and require lifetime bans and enhanced sentencing of any officer who has more than once incident of abuse under the color of authority.

  • #263747

    politicopedro
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    @EGL Admin 92767 wrote:

    When you come back from fantasyland and your $1 over what it takes to the fill the position, let us know. Let’s stick with reality and the reality is none of those positions are filled that way. Very few positions are filled that way unless it’s minimum wage even in the private sector. Private companies are just as guilty of paying too much for some jobs. Free market also means you lose employees to better paying jobs. You really don’t want cops and firefighters jumping from job to job. Some may choose to leave but that’s not good for continuity and being efficient.

    You guys can all whine and complain about how it’s not fair, but you’re the same one bitching when people complain about their jobs and how it’s about choices and if they aren’t happy do something about it. Now you’re complaining because they found something and you don’t like what they are getting. Make up your mind. If it offends you morally or ethically, get over it because I’m pretty sure none of them care that it does. I would be sending you pictures of myself drinking a Mai tai on a beach and say thanks for contributing to my retirement. πŸ™‚

    I’m going to go PP on you for a second and ask what have you done to help solve this problem? Are involved in anyway in anything to fix it, or are you going to just keep banging on the keyboard about it? It seems like it really bothers you a lot. Are you going go just keep bending over and grabbing your ankles?

    I don’t blame the individuals, especially since it is “closed shop”, but the system obviously needs to be fixed…

    Check into Sj Mayor Chuck Reed’s pension reform measure… which would put “bargaining” back into collective bargaining…

    We also need some reform to reduce legalized bribery. Today in CA, only one group is allowed to give money directly to the people who will then be bargaining for their salaries – public employee unions. If you are a energy company asking for a rate increase, you cannot give money to PUC board, if you are bus dealer bidding to provide vehicles to RT, you cannot contribute to any board member voting on your contract. If you are a land owner selling money to the city for a new park, you cannot give contributions to council members (or more accurately, within a prescribed period of time). Yet PEU’s – who are the only group for whom the state collects political money and who have maneuvered their way around contribution limits – can give money on Monday, and show up to the bargaining table on Tuesday.

  • #263748

    politicopedro
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    @doclaguna 92783 wrote:

    Have you even seen DocL say anything about a pro athlete getting paid too much? Nope. An entertainer? Nope. Some guy who runs his own business? Nope. The issue is not who makes what. It’s the complete and utter disregard to the taxpayer by public employee unions and politicians.
    Again, for the millionth time, by all means be a public employee and milk the system. Just don’t tell me you are a fiscal conservative at the same time.

    I will say it:
    Pro athletes get paid too much. Entertainers get paid too much.

    I can say that because I believe in the free market.

    California taxpayers alone directly subsidize the movie industry by well over $200 million a year. That is NOT a free market.

    Taxpayers are routinely soaked for BILLIONS for the cost of stadiums and arenas for pro sports. That is NOT a free market.

    Eliminate public subsidies, then they can pay them whatever and still wave the Free Market flag. But as long as they fight for and get enormous public subsidies, it is just another form of welfare.

  • #263749

    politicopedro
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    @EGL Admin 92753 wrote:

    A dollar amount on the retirement is what I asked.

    Would you support this: employees should always pay employees share of retirement?

  • #263630

    EGL Admin
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    @politicopedro 92902 wrote:

    Would you support this: employees should always pay employees share of retirement?

    Heck yes I would. I think you should get out what you put in. I just don’t fault the employees for taking it when it’s been happening forever.

  • #263750

    politicopedro
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    @EGL Admin 92737 wrote:

    So unions have never been broken or forced to take concessions? If things were so bad why didn’t the employer go to the public and say this would break the bank? You want to blame the people who had nothing to do with it. Blame the government agencies who agreed with it. As I said before it’s like blaming the players because owners gave them millions of dollars.

    So what would be a fair retirement in your opinion?

    Actually, to some degree they have not… at least with public employee unions. Current law – or at least the current interpretation of the law – define “vested interest” for PEU’s to include expectant benefits. In other words you cannot take anything away, without giving something back of equal or higher value. In the private sector (your personal 401, for example) “vested interested” is defined as only that which has already been earned or accumulated.

    The recent legal battle in San Jose is testing this doctrine. It is now heading to appeals, but the lower court essentially upheld this concept… in other words the current system (which is almost universally understood as unsustainable) for pay, benefits, retirement benefits & pensions cannot be reduced for current employees… so the “bargaining table” doesn’t allow any real concessions… Put another way, the floor keep rising, the only negotiation is on the ceiling. Temporary cuts to pay do occur, but they have to be “reimbursed” with a future benefit (so salary cuts a just a way of pushing deficits to the future.)

  • #263751

    politicopedro
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    @newmom 92707 wrote:

    Yep. These are folks who wanted to be teachers growing up, and they are great teachers and love their jobs. They can’t help abut their union and they do what they can to limit its power but there isn’t much they can do.

    This is especially true with teachers unions. Many union or trade groups are “member driven”. Teachers’ unions are not. I am recalling a local reform a few years ago, where 90% of teachers signed a petition supporting the reform. The union said “NO”. I am recalling the state teacher’s union spending $100 million in a single election – funded by a surcharge on every teacher (including “opt-out” teachers who are technically not union members), but never approved or sanctioned by members.

    I think teachers want the reforms needed to make good schools. I think teachers want the best teachers to get paid more than the worst teachers. I think teachers want students to be able to choose the type of school they go to. I think teachers want engaged, innovative principals and superintendents who challenge and support them to do better. But the union leaders don’t want that.

  • #263714

    LC
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    I think teachers want engaged, innovative principals and superintendents who challenge and support them to do better. But the union leaders don’t want that.

    Right, because as President Obama just said yesterday, they’re more concerned about the German shareholders than the workers.

    Oh…my bad. He was talking about why the GOP killed the UAW deal at the VW plant in Tennessee. Idjiot.

  • #263652

    adiffer
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    @politicopedro 92896 wrote:

    “They’re only human” doesn’t cut it when we entrust them with such power… “don’t do anything wrong and you won’t have to worry about it…” doesn’t add up when, with greater and greater frequency, we see people who were minding their own business and were in the wrong place, or mistaken for the wrong person…

    Is the frequency of abuse actually higher? Do we know that?

    I know we certainly see it more (frequency of observation) due to the penetration of cameras and microphones and that will continue, but I’m unsure we can know more than that. Do you have stats about abuse rates?

  • #263752

    politicopedro
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    @adiffer 92923 wrote:

    Is the frequency of abuse actually higher? Do we know that?

    I know we certainly see it more (frequency of observation) due to the penetration of cameras and microphones and that will continue, but I’m unsure we can know more than that. Do you have stats about abuse rates?

    I don’t think that it is rampant – but that is not the point. Adding mandatory reporting (ie require medical and other professionals document and report injuries incurred during LE encounters) would provide better data; and since we entrust them with greater powers, we should require a higher standard…

  • #263631

    EGL Admin
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    I don’t know it’s any worse. I think as Al said, we hear and see more about it. I have heard cops I know talk about taking someone the “long way” to jail. I knew a guy from high school and after we graduated he was pulled over, not drinking, he was stopped for some traffic issue. Not an aggressive guy at all. Something happened and he got roughed up by the Sheriff’s and was arrested for resisting. He wasn’t that type of guy at all and he said it was all BS. Who knows, but you hear enough of those stories and the Sheriff’s dept has had many issues with people in jail and being sued for excessive force. You get some A-holes who want to fight and I can understand it, but it’s also regular people who are questioning what is happening and getting beat for asking questions. As we have talked about before, the best way to avoid it by making sure every interaction is recorded. Protects everyone.

  • #263632

    EGL Admin
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    @politicopedro 92925 wrote:

    I don’t think that it is rampant – but that is not the point. Adding mandatory reporting (ie require medical and other professionals document and report injuries incurred during LE encounters) would provide better data; and since we entrust them with greater powers, we should require a higher standard…

    I think that is a good idea.

  • #263753

    politicopedro
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  • #263754

    politicopedro
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  • #263633

    EGL Admin
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    The problem is the police are losing the public trust and it’s going to be an us vs them thing that will just get worse. I know they don’t have an easy job but all these stories add up. Amazing how many are from the LA area.

  • #263755

    politicopedro
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    That’s one advantage to raising standards and accountability – it helps to restore public trust when they see that the few bad apples get punished… they lose confidence and trust when they see incidents swept under the rug and guilty go unpunished.

  • #263688

    doclaguna
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    This site is so much better when PP is around. More later. I actually have to work… πŸ˜‰

  • #263634

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 92998 wrote:

    This site is so much better when PP is around. More later. I actually have to work… πŸ˜‰

    Well, unless he’s trying to stop the arena. πŸ™‚

    It’s better when more people contribute and add their area of expertise. I appreciate everyone’s opinions on these subjects even if we disagree. We can all learn something.

  • #263653

    adiffer
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    @politicopedro 92925 wrote:

    I don’t think that it is rampant – but that is not the point. Adding mandatory reporting (ie require medical and other professionals document and report injuries incurred during LE encounters) would provide better data; and since we entrust them with greater powers, we should require a higher standard…

    OK. Capture the stories along with the physical injury data. People talk. 8)

  • #263654

    adiffer
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    @politicopedro 92981 wrote:

    These are the incidents I am thinking of…

    Innocent man beaten and tasered by California police for signaling he is deaf

    Yah. I see these and others on FB through my Libertarian friends who get quite frothy over them.

    What I worry about is that they want to engage in wholesale changes to the system when we can’t distinguish between a higher frequency of observation compared to a higher frequency of occurance. The former could be addressed with small adaptations to the rules like you suggest while the later might justify a 2nd amendment response.

    I would also like to see our police look just a little less ‘military’. I’d be willing to put up with quite a bit to get that to happen.

  • #263756

    politicopedro
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    Sometimes I wonder if Al is being intentionally obtuse or feels so compelled to say something that he just tosses out random thoughts.

  • #263689

    doclaguna
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    @politicopedro 93114 wrote:

    Sometimes I wonder if Al is being intentionally obtuse or feels so compelled to say something that he just tosses out random thoughts.

    That would be Doc. πŸ˜‰ Al likes to see how many shades of gray he can generate.

  • #263655

    adiffer
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    Heh.

    I enjoy exploring concepts. They aren’t little islands that stand apart from each other and are easily mapped on a single trip. The largest ones take generations. The smallest often connect if one bothers to look underwater at the shelf.

    My ‘randomness’ is analogical exploration.

  • #263635

    EGL Admin
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    Whew. If that won’t make a person want to put a gun in their mouth I don’t know what will.

  • #263656

    adiffer
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    Ready to devolve and rejoin the animal ranks below us? 8)

    This is what humans do when we use language. Analogy construction and exploration IS communication.

    I enjoy it immensely.

  • #263757

    politicopedro
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    Boom.

  • #263715

    LC
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    I think the proposed Pension Reform Act that the proponents are trying to get on the Nov 2014 ballot only affect benefits not earned and for work not completed. If I’m reading it correctly, retirees are protected and all benefits earned to date by current employees are protected. I think that’s the way it should be.

  • #263636

    EGL Admin
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    If it pencils out $$ wise then I agree. I think they also need better rules on double dipping and those who continue working in private industry. Maybe they can only take out a small percentage if they keep working.

  • #263716

    LC
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    I don’t know how post retirement works with PERS but with STRS it’s pretty simple. First you cannot work in the system for 180 days upon retirement. Then, your earnings as a current employee who is retired are limited to $40K a year. After that your retirement gets reduced.

    Working outside the system does not affect public retirement, why would it? Private employees do this all the time–retire from a job then take another, full or part time.

  • #263637

    EGL Admin
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    If you retire from private to take another private job when do you get retirement? Lets say I work 20 years for IBM and retire from there at 50, do I start taking retirement then? Or do I have to wait?

  • #263717

    LC
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    You’re entitled to your vested plan regardless of what you do elsewhere in private industry. What does happen though is that increased taxes can eat into your social security if you get it.

    I don’t know if there are any restrictions outside of the two big systems in CA PERS and STRS. I *think* you can retire on STRS and work in PERS without penalty but I don’t know for sure. Most retirees in private industry try to work as a 1099 for that reason.

    Pension laws have really changed over the years to the benefit of the employee. It used to be that you weren’t vested until you retired, and if you left before you got nothing. A friend’s father worked all his life at the Port of Stockton and was fired one year before his retirement in a “downsizing.” He got nothing. I think that’s criminal, and that doesn’t happen anymore.

    The great thing about 401k pensions is they are totally portable. You always get your contributions when you change employers, and usually full vesting is within 3-5 years so if you stay that long you get the employers share too.

  • #263638

    EGL Admin
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    I’m just going to let Doclaguna pay for mine. πŸ™‚

  • #263690

    doclaguna
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    Can you imagine if cops and public employees worked as hard at their actual job as they do gaming the system? Wow, shit might get done.

  • #263639

    EGL Admin
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    What percent do you think are gaming the system?

  • #263691

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 93194 wrote:

    What percent do you think are gaming the system?

    Which aren’t in some way?
    This is what I see at a way higher percentage than say some gal busting her ass self employed as a hair dresser:

    1. FMLA. For everything and anything.
    2. Requests for reasonable accommodations for everythjng and anything.
    3. Medical “disabilities” than any self employed or private employee would push through.
    4. Early retirement from 3, followed by the double or triple dip.

    The problem is once the culture is contaminated, good people feel like suckers for not jumping on the gravy train.

  • #263723

    newmom
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    And, once culture is contaminated, there is not shame from those in the system, and those at the top are complicit and continue the problem.

  • #263758

    politicopedro
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    @lc 93167 wrote:

    I think the proposed Pension Reform Act that the proponents are trying to get on the Nov 2014 ballot only affect benefits not earned and for work not completed. If I’m reading it correctly, retirees are protected and all benefits earned to date by current employees are protected. I think that’s the way it should be.

    That is pretty much spot on – only it doesn’t directly affect them, it just ALLOWS negotiations about future benefits/earnings/pension for work to be completed in the future.

  • #263759

    politicopedro
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    @EGL Admin 93176 wrote:

    If you retire from private to take another private job when do you get retirement? Lets say I work 20 years for IBM and retire from there at 50, do I start taking retirement then? Or do I have to wait?

    You still have to wait – or take a lessor amount AND get hit with IRS early withdrawal penalties. Perhaps one of the tax experts can comment, but I believe that eligibility age for taking 401/etc distributions without penalty is tied to SS retirement age.

  • #263640

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 93196 wrote:

    Which aren’t in some way?
    This is what I see at a way higher percentage than say some gal busting her ass self employed as a hair dresser:

    1. FMLA. For everything and anything.
    2. Requests for reasonable accommodations for everythjng and anything.
    3. Medical “disabilities” than any self employed or private employee would push through.
    4. Early retirement from 3, followed by the double or triple dip.

    The problem is once the culture is contaminated, good people feel like suckers for not jumping on the gravy train.

    The first 2 are not cop/firefighter specific, but anyone who is not self employed and has the ability to do that. Even private employers offer FMLA. I wish I had the opportunity to do that stuff at times. Of course it will be higher than people who are self employed. If you are self employed, unless you own a business and have employees, then if you don’t work, then you don’t get paid. My nephew cleans carpets. If he can’t work, he doesn’t get paid. You being a doctor, you don’t work, you don’t get paid.

    What percentage of cops and firefighters do you think are gaming the system though? It sounds like from your comments that you think a very large portion is because you lump them in all with the same group. I don’t think it’s a majority or even close. If you’re hurt and can’t do your job the way you need to is that gaming the system? You can have a sprained ankle or broken arm and still do your job for the most part. A firefighter or LE can’t.

    Unfortunately taking advantage is a big thing in our society. Everyone thinks they are sticking it to the man, whether the man is a rich business owner or company or the taxpayer. I rearended a car dropping off kids at school a few years ago going less than 5 mph. The mom was in her car with two kids and they called 911 and had the ambulance come out and transport them. I knew one of the firefighters and afterwards he told me it was total BS. None of them were hurt. The car didn’t even have a scratch on it. I talked to my insurance guy and he said by them going to the hospital and doing all that, they get triple the damages. So whatever their medical bills came to, they got 3X that. Ambulance ride was at least $1500. ER visit. They were still going to to therapy 6 months after the accident. I saw the mom at the store a few months later and I was right behind her and I called my insurance agent and asked what would happen if I ran her ass over with a grocery cart. πŸ™‚

    We can also thank lawyers for their part in this as well. They make this all possible.

  • #263760

    politicopedro
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    To a large degree – because the problem is systemic – ALL of them and none of them are gaming the system. The SYSTEM is broken. There are some who also abuse the system, and we should do a better job prosecuting them.

    Some of the systemic problems include:

    * Allowing accruals to count for salary – so the system adds all the overtime, unused vacation, unused leaves, etc to calculate “final salary” )upon which pension disbursements are calculated. The solution(s): limit accruals and prohibit cash outs (use or lose it),

    * Frequent use of “jump promotions” – designed solely to boost retirement benefits. The solution(s): 5 year averaging for calculating benefits.

    * WC Presumption. For public safety, virtually any injury/illness is deemed to be work related, leading to disability retirements and benefits. For example a CHP officer who played golf in Palm Springs at least twice a week was given a full disability retirement (despite objections) for skin cancer (fully treatable, non-matastisized); a Correctional Officer who played football in college and semi-pro football while working for Corrections had knee injuries before being hired and was hurt playing after he was hired and was given early disability retirement – yet after rehab, he again played semi-pro football. The solution(s): much tighter definition for “work-related injury.”

    * Arbitration. So many arbitrators have awarded huge salary/benefit increases that more and more unions intentionally go to impasse because their odds of winning go way up. The solution(s): ban retroactive increases, require arbitrators to consider government finances as a factor.

    * Vested Rights. The big daddy. This principle essentially says salary and benefits can never go down – any concession for one has to be given back in equal value in another. The solution(s): Keep what you earned, but negociations are actually negotiated.

    * Pension Board. Nearly all pension boards have a majority of annuitants – in other words, they are voting themselves increased benefits. The solution(s): require pension boards be managed by professional investment officer with board oversight, but board cannot directly approve increases.

    * Defined Benefit. You get XYZ regardless of cost. This puts 100% of the risk on taxpayers – there is no risk to boosting the benefits because taxpayers must make up the difference. The solution(s): defined contribution.

    * Contribution Shares. There are two significant problems here: First is that in many cities, taxpayers pay BOTH employer and employee shares. Second, too many cities have failed to fund pensions – relying on market/investment profits to fund benefit increases and diverting GF revenues to other uses. The solution(s): require equal share payments, require full funding by government every year.

  • #263718

    LC
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    @politicopedro 93204 wrote:

    To a large degree – because the problem is systemic – ALL of them and none of them are gaming the system. The SYSTEM is broken. There are some who also abuse the system, and we should do a better job prosecuting them.

    Some of the systemic problems include:

    * Allowing accruals to count for salary – so the system adds all the overtime, unused vacation, unused leaves, etc to calculate “final salary” )upon which pension disbursements are calculated. The solution(s): limit accruals and prohibit cash outs (use or lose it),

    * Frequent use of “jump promotions” – designed solely to boost retirement benefits. The solution(s): 5 year averaging for calculating benefits.

    I don’t think OT counts for the final salary, nor does vacation pay, at least in the STRS system. I don’t know of any overtime there but the public safety employees final salary does not factor in OT to my knowledge. Unused vacation and sick leave does count for time served. Most STRS certificated employees work on contract days, so there is no unused vacation, but that’s just for educators and admins.

    As to the spiking, I was pretty shocked to learn a few years ago that our retirement was based on the highest salary year ever. It used to be the average of the top five years. Although it’s a great deal if you’re a beneficiary it certainly does invite spiking for favored employees, especially in the public safety sector. We should go back to the five year average.

    I don’t know if California voters will approved these reforms. They should, but there will be a lot of paid opposition from the unions. If you’re a mid career public employee you won’t like it one bit, but at least you have a chance to change your career, knowing your benefits forward and keeping what you’ve earned.

    The one question I have is how will equivalents to social security contributions be treated? Many public employees and employers do not pay into social security, so their total benefit is supposed to include the equivalent as a portion of the contributions have been in lieu of it. I think that part should be protected equally to anyone who does pay in separately.

  • #263761

    politicopedro
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    @lc 93217 wrote:

    I don’t think OT counts for the final salary, nor does vacation pay, at least in the STRS system. I don’t know of any overtime there but the public safety employees final salary does not factor in OT to my knowledge. Unused vacation and sick leave does count for time served. Most STRS certificated employees work on contract days, so there is no unused vacation, but that’s just for educators and admins. [/quote]
    We are talking about LE retirement. Vacation and unused leave are all “cashable.” The cash out, along with OT, are used to calculate retirement pay.

    STRS has it’s own problem – or more precisely, a $167 Billion problem.

    Quote:
    I don’t know if California voters will approved these reforms. They should, but there will be a lot of paid opposition from the unions. If you’re a mid career public employee you won’t like it one bit, but at least you have a chance to change your career, knowing your benefits forward and keeping what you’ve earned.

    Voters support these reforms – it’s very similar to the reforms we helped pass in San Jose, which garnered 72% of the vote in city much bluer than the state as a whole. However, after unions spend $150 Million misrepresenting the issue, it might not pass.

    Quote:
    The one question I have is how will equivalents to social security contributions be treated? Many public employees and employers do not pay into social security, so their total benefit is supposed to include the equivalent as a portion of the contributions have been in lieu of it. I think that part should be protected equally to anyone who does pay in separately.

    First, the reform doesn’t change ANY retirement plans, they just allow changes to be made. Some public employee groups (especially in other states), require employees to participate in SS, then augment to reach the agreed upon levels.

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