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Ice Rink in Old Town Elk Grove

This topic contains 107 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Sarah Johnson 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #172689

    SteveB6509
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    Apparently, there is a proposal to spend at least $80,000 on an ice rink in Old Town Elk Grove from mid-Nov to mid-Jan. There would be an additional $75,000 in costs to run the rink. I think the idea of an ice rink is a great idea but it has to be in a location where people could easily park and get to (at least at that price). Perhaps in Elk Grove Park or some other location would make more sense. Heck, ask the mall owners if it can be set up there – lots of open parking there and it is easy to get to for most people (bus lines can be realigned to get there too).

  • #241779

    EGL Admin
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    That’s cool. I contacted the city about it about a year and a half ago. We had went to the one in Folsom and it was packed. I emailed the city council and also Christine Brainerd. Glad they are looking into it.
    I agree on the parking but I don’t think the mall is a good place. The optimum type of location would be a place where other businesses could benefit from the increased traffic. Not sure where in Old Town it would be. Maybe the old gravel pit by the railroad tracks.

    Here is the thread about it from April 2011

    http://www.elkgrove-laguna.net/forums/showthread.php?2727-An-idea-for-Elk-Grove

  • #241806

    Raven
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    The old gravel pit would be the perfect place for it!

  • #241854

    SteveB6509
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    I agree that the idea is great and on second thought, I agree that the mall sight would not make sense. However, I saw somewhere that the suggestion was to have a couple thousand people coming to the mall area on busy days. Old town has trouble fitting a few hundred in.

  • #241841

    violarose
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    When we visit my mom in Carson City NV I like to take my girls to the ice rink. It sure would be nice to have one a whole lot closer ; ) It will make a small profit I gather, as all the middle schoolers and High schoolers would want to check it out.

  • #241820

    tomwaltman
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    This would have to be in the Target parking lot or something like that, if they want to make money doing it. Or we could have it run for a dozen or so people in Old Town. Think of it this way. The football game last night drew a couple thousand people. Folks parked in residential areas over a half mile away after filling all the available parking at EGHS. Old Town wouldn’t stand much of a chance if they had that many people descend on the area at one time. Of course, you could encourage teens to walk down there. Walking is good for you, and having them roaming around on foot late at night in Old Town would be very healthy.

  • #241780

    EGL Admin
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    I agee Tom that the perfect place to get the most people would be some place like the Target parking lot. The parking in old town is prohibitive. I think there is a market for it here. Hopefully they can work it out.

  • #241855

    SteveB6509
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    Forget talk about small profits, that’s the other point about this – this is going to cost $150K! I don’t mind spending that kind of money for a community amenity like this (I believe we are doing OK financially). However, to then put it in a place which is difficult to get to/park – that doesn’t make sense to me.

    I am also curious about this coming up just two weeks before the election. This should have been in the works a couple of months ago. I hope the timing is not related to City Council members hoping to look better just before the election.

  • #241821

    tomwaltman
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    Steve, there is essentially no competition for the City Council seats at this point. Even the Mayoral race is pretty much a matter of Gary Davis having no serious crises in the next two weeks. Nobody is campaigning with this. I think that you are right in that this should have been proposed, approved, and began back in the Spring of this year at the latest, but maybe they have done some of the initial footwork already, and we just don’t know yet. It will be interesting to see what happens.

  • #241856

    SteveB6509
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    I was thinking more of Gary and Sophia. It’s probably not part of the situation here but what can I say – it appears our City Council comes out with expensive ideas just before many elections (remember the last-minute decision for our library and how much it cost?).

  • #241822

    tomwaltman
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    Yeah, but that was a far different group. Do you think Sophia is pushing this? Gary doesn’t need to do anything right now, and instead, should be laying pretty low.

    Bottom line is that this can’t happen prior to the end of the year if it hasn’t already been planned. There just isn’t enough time. SO whatever is done is likely to be far after the election at the best case.

  • #241781

    EGL Admin
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    This has likely been in discussion mode for quite awhile with staff looking into it.

    I don’t think it’s political at all. If anything this has more potential to be an issue and get people upset than anything. Spending taxpayer money on anything is an issue. $155K is too much to spend though for something for 6 weeks. If it was something permanent that is different.

  • #241800

    LC
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    Downtown Plaza used to have a small temporary rink (they still may) which was simply an area of ice surrounded by hay bales. It was fine, and I doubt the cost was all that great. Something like that for OT might be OK.

  • #241801

    newmom
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    Downtown still does an ice rink, but it’s no longer surrounded by hay bales. It has walls and everything. They are full all the time too. Very busy.

  • #241857

    SteveB6509
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    I imagine you all are right – there is probably nothing political here. It just seems like a last-minute decision to spend a fair bit of money in an area which cannot handle a large group of people.

  • #241807

    Raven
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    I doubt very seriously that there are going to be as many people at the same time at the ice skating rink as there is at a football game.

  • #241845

    kindrlindr
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    How about they put it in the old Bel Air parking lot? Its useless right now.

  • #241782

    EGL Admin
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    That would be a good place. Easy to get to. Has parking. It’s also near the other center where Stagecoaach is and people could park there or at the CSD building across the street.

  • #241874

    Sarah Johnson
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    As far as I can tell, there has been no public discussion of this idea.

  • #241783

    EGL Admin
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    Many ideas start without official public discussion at city council meetings. In fact I’d guess most all do. Most probably initiate with someone contacting a council member or city planner. I’m sure virtually all development starts that way. I imagine that sometimes ideas come up and staff is directed to look into it. There should be public discussion before a decision is made but that doesn’t always mean they have to do what a few speakers want especially if its the same people on every issue being critical of everything. That’s not the best way to determine policy.

  • #241875

    Sarah Johnson
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    Doc, I agree with your general premise, but in this case they are looking to do all this within the next 3 weeks and as a resident of Old Town, I can see many issues and obstacles to overcome and this looks like a rush and, perhaps, a half-baked idea.

  • #241808

    Raven
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    Sarah, I’m curious, what kind of issues and obstacles do you see?

  • #241876

    Sarah Johnson
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    The projected numbers of visitors and the projected income may not be realistic, and the traffic and parking from all these projected visitors, and the logistics of bringing in an outside vendor into Old Town to run the facility. Again, I just would like more information on these issues. The Old Town folks have traditionally been protective of Old Town and I can see potential for conflicts and misunderstandings, and a big issue seems to be the haste with which this is being done.

  • #241809

    Raven
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    Do you have a link to where all of this is being proposed?

  • #241877

    Sarah Johnson
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    City website on Wednesday’s agenda. elkgrovecity.org/city council meetings/agendas/, click on the agenda item number and the staff report will come up.

  • #241823

    tomwaltman
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    Amazing how this work, eh Sarah? I agree that if the initial footwork hasn’t been done, especially with the Old Town leadership, then this is going to have problems. Putting an activity in a small area like that without the cooperation and support of the local mechants and residents who will be considerably impacted seems… well… unfriendly.

    Parking down there would be a nightmare, in the colder weather where people are not going to be willing to walk 1/2 mile with bundled up young kids, etc. Downtown works because the local area is fully prepared, and parking is plentiful. We did my daughter’s birthday down there last year, and it was a blast. BUT, it was a blast because it was easy to manage.

    Not to be a pessimist, but this is something that should have started last spring, with an advertising campaign, including a parking plan, that began in August. At this point, the vendors should already have been on-site, setting up and the whole area should be showing signs of the event (assuming a Mid-November start date). Local mechants should be talking to people about the special things they will offer and giving people tips on parking. The entire Metro region should know about this, and it should be at the point of general anticipation for the opening in November.

    Instead, we are talking about maybe doing it somewhere in Old Town… Um, anyone want to take bets on the revenue forecast?

  • #241810

    Raven
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    It looks like they are planning on putting it where the gravel pit used to be. I think it’s a good idea. I feel it’s another good way to bring people to old town. “The operator is related to the entity Ice Unlimited, Inc., which was responsible for bringing seasonal ice rinks to Sacramento, Folsom, and Rancho Cordova” I don’t see anything wrong with that.

  • #241784

    EGL Admin
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    Depends on the cost. $155K for 2 months is a lot.

  • #241878

    Sarah Johnson
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    On a positive note, that big ugly billboard is finally going away!!

  • #241785

    EGL Admin
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    That’s true! πŸ™‚

  • #241786

    EGL Admin
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    I did email all the council members about the idea and gave them a link to this thread. Heard back from Gary Davis

  • #241858

    SteveB6509
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    This all really does not make sense. Too much of a rush to spend so much money. I can see some of the Old Town people being in favor but if this were to be anywhere near successful, they would also not have any parking for people who want to shop there but not go ice skating.

    Apparently, the City has not closed the purchase on that lot yet either.

  • #241787

    EGL Admin
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    How do we know its a rush? Maybe it’s been a process of a few months. I don’t know either way. I don’t think it just came up last week. Nothing moves that fast.

  • #241853

    egca95624
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    Hi,

    Just to chime in on this, I don’t know how long discussions may have been going on, but I learned about the possibility of this a little over a week ago. Apparently, Folsom and Rancho have decided not to have their rinks this year and so the operator is looking for a new venue. There are many outstanding issues, some of which have been raised here that will hopefully be flushed out Wednesday.

  • #241859

    SteveB6509
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    The planning docs say it is a rush (and thus the need to not go through the standard review process).

  • #241788

    EGL Admin
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    Gotcha. That plus wanting to forego the competitive bidding process. The gravel pit could be a good idea in the future but I don’t think it’s a good idea for this year unless they can fix it up quickly.

    Maybe I’ll charge for parking at our office in the off hours. πŸ™‚

  • #241846

    kindrlindr
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    Why Old Town? Why not where it will be more accessible and NOT cause any more traffic than is doable? Can’t the owner of that Bel Air lot lease the lot for a couple months? There is the CSD lot across the street for parking as well. I think if people were interested in going to Old Town, they’d be there already……..

    Hey, here’s a thought……how about they put it on the old Secret Garden lawn? :sarcastic

  • #241824

    tomwaltman
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    Anyone wonder why both Folsom and Rancho Cordova opted out?

  • #241871

    illbnice
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    I second (or third) the Bel-Air parking lot.

  • #241860

    SteveB6509
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    So here is the breakdown on future revenues (as reported by Elk Grove Patch):

    Ice Unlimited receives the first $50,000 of gross revenue from tickets and rentals
    The city receives the next $10,000 of gross revenue from tickets and rentals
    Ice Unlimited receives all gross ticket and rental revenues after that until it has earned a total of $140,000 (including the first $50,000).
    The city receives all gross ticket and rental revenues after that, with no cap.

    Thus, if we assume $10 per average person skating, the costs come down to:

    Payment to Ice Unlimited + Operating Expenses: $155,000
    Recovery of Initial Ticket Sales: $10,000

    After this, we don’t start to recover costs until a total of 15,000 people have skated through the holiday season. This works out to about 250 people per day. I can see this number being hit on nice weekend days and over Christmas/New Year, but I have a lot of trouble seeing it being hit on any school day or any rainy day.

  • #241802

    newmom
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    I agree Steve. And it seems that if Folsom and RC have already declined, we are in a good position to negotiate a more favorable agreement, including location and revenue. The current plan doesn’t appear to make sense on many levels. Old Town is NOT a destination that many people will go to, including my family (I’m guessing). We visit the Downtown Plaza ice rink each year and make a day out of it, including shopping and dining. We only park the car once and walk around. That’s not going to happen in Old Town. It’s not family friendly in terms of parking, shopping, or dining. So, there isn’t a reason to go there over another another rink.

  • #241811

    Raven
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    Dickens Faire has always drawn a pretty good crowd, along with the parade and the tree lighting ceremony. I’ve known quite a few people from the west side of town come for it.

  • #241803

    newmom
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    I’m not saying the location is a problem because we are on the west side. I’m saying it’s a problem because there isn’t anything else to do there. We go to Downtown Plaza and park for the day, skate, shop, and eat with the kids. It’s very family friendly. There aren’t enough shops or restaurants in Old Town, and yes, the parking sucks. If we were to go, I don’t see us spending much time or money, like we do downtown. The City needs to stop forcing things in Old Town on us.

  • #241812

    Raven
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    My response wasn’t to you Newmom, I was just saying. The city isn’t forcing anything on you. Tradition has always been these things in Old Town, the original Elk Grove. Geez!!!!!!

  • #241789

    EGL Admin
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    I received a response from the Assistant City Manager. It won’t be done on private property because of liability issues which is understandable.

    I think Newmom has a point. There really isn’t much to do there. You have two dining options, Brickhouse and the Chinese restaurant. Also a few shopping options, which are mainly antique type of stuff.

    Thank you for your thoughtful comments regarding the proposed ice rink. Yes, we are concerned that a successful attraction might lead to parking concerns. We are committed providing 80+ parking spots at the site, promote the public parking lot two blocks east and provide shopper shuttle service from nearby parking lots on nights and weekends. We will monitor the activity and adjust if necessary.

    Regarding the suggestion of other locations, we are limiting our options to publicly-owned parcels due to the inherent liability and coordination issues. If successful, we will consider rotating among other sites around the City in the coming years. Yes, we are inviting the food trucks to operate at the rink. Please let me know if you have further suggestions as we continue to work on delivering this event.

    Thank you,

    Becky Craig
    Assistant City Manager

    City of Elk Grove
    8401 Laguna Palms Way
    Elk Grove, CA 95758

    916.627.3423 (office)
    707.290.1737 (mobile)
    916.627.4200 (fax)

    http://www.elkgrovecity.org

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  • #241813

    Raven
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    “Yes, we are inviting the food trucks to operate at the rink.” The food trucks always attract people. Walking a block or two does seem to be a problem for some people. And I’m just saying, so nobody needs to get in a tizzy. This is practically going be in my backyard, and I have no problems with it.

  • #241851

    SDF
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    I say put it in Old Town and get people down there. Having a central area, like Old Town, for people to go to is great. Plus, I have a connection with parking spaces in old town πŸ˜‰

  • #241790

    EGL Admin
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    If the finances make sense I say we go for it this year and see what happens. Then next year look elsewhere if needed.

  • #241861

    SteveB6509
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    I was thinking about the food trucks as a solution to having it in Elk Grove Park. You’d have more parking, a much more natural environment, and the potential to have a wider arrange of activities in future years. Heck, for a two-month swing, we could probably have local restaurants set up tents with mini-versions of their food on weekends as well. With the food trucks brought into the mix, I feel even stronger that Elk Grove Park is the place for this.

  • #241852

    SDF
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    It seems as though this project has a tight timeline to make it happen. It is also a project that is being initiated by the city and will be placed on city property. Elk Grove Park is under CSD. If this actually happens, it’ll be a test year like anything when it first happens. At the end they will more than likely look at it and determine if it was successful and if its success or lack of success was due to its location.

    @steveb6509 68779 wrote:

    I was thinking about the food trucks as a solution to having it in Elk Grove Park. You’d have more parking, a much more natural environment, and the potential to have a wider arrange of activities in future years. Heck, for a two-month swing, we could probably have local restaurants set up tents with mini-versions of their food on weekends as well. With the food trucks brought into the mix, I feel even stronger that Elk Grove Park is the place for this.

  • #241862

    SteveB6509
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    Call me crazy, but somehow I think the CSD could make the insurance issue work for Elk Grove Park.

  • #241791

    EGL Admin
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    Ok you’re crazy. πŸ˜‰

    I’m sure they could. One issue with the park could be security and vandalism. Not sure restaurants would set up something in the winter time. With more time they could. I think it’s kind of late for them to plan for this. Folsom didn’t have a lot of parking. But they do have more to do within walking distance. We’ve had this discussion about Old Town many times. There is no draw there right now and will not be for the forseeable future. But they do at least have an organization. Nowhere else in Elk Grove do you have that. Laguna would be a great place to hold functions but the only things that happen are CSD events at the Laguna town hall. Even that would be a good place for it. Parking there isn’t great either though. If you’ve been to an event there you do have to walk. But it shows people will come if the event is good.

    I saw on the Patch that it would need 300 people a day to break even. Weekdays that will be tough. Weekends would be easy. Could probably get 500 weather permitting.

  • #241814

    Raven
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    @steveb6509 68782 wrote:

    Call me crazy, but somehow I think the CSD could make the insurance issue work for Elk Grove Park.

    As a vendor at street fairs, CSD makes the vendors provide their own insurance. So that means they would make the person that owns the rink provide insurance.

  • #241840

    Curlzz01
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    I know the perfect spot to have it… Right where our nice mall is… alot of room and plenty of parking……………

  • #241847

    kindrlindr
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    I like the park idea…….lots of unused space. Add food trucks and coffee kiosks and you have a party. ;o) I have NO desire to go to old town because of the mess it is. People use EG Blvd to commute from one side of town to the other, not to go to Old Town and shop. It has turned into a clog of a street that I try to avoid at all costs(except to go see Laini at Tangles Hair Salon. She is awesome! :o)

  • #241825

    tomwaltman
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    Okay, I have just reviewed the contract and the payment stipulations. Assuming 60 days of operation, the rink will have to have 29,000 skaters attend the rink during the open period (average of 450 every day of operation) to break even. The skating rink operator will make $220,000 before the city sees more than $10,000 of any revenue. So until the rink hits 15,000 paying attendees, the city will not recoup more than the designated $10,000.

    The rink will have to be operational in less than three weeks. No advertising has been done to this point. If this were my operation, and my employees brought this to me, I would be asking them at what point in the next year they planned to get it underway, because there is absolutely no responsible business case to pursuing this in the time frame given. Successful operation depends on the widest possible knowledge of the amenity and a draw from the entire south region, not just Elk Grove. That is the only way you will draw the numbers necessary to even break even, much less create a revenue stream from the amenity. Given that city employee salaries are not considered in the breakdown of costs, from what I can see, there is probably a slightly greater cost to the project than is formally listed. At least a greater opportunity cost that can be monitized.

    I think it is pretty easy to see now why Folsom and Rancho passed this year.

  • #241879

    Sarah Johnson
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    Thanks Tom. This is the third calculation I have seen, and the most detailed. While I do appreciate the attempt to help Old Town, if that was in fact the intent, this just seems way to rushed, why too incomplete of a plan, and the numbers just don;t seem to work. It’s not enough to say, “Oh goody, let’s have a holiday ice rink”. The unintended consequences are always the ones that come back to bite us in a deal like this. This looks like a money pit.

  • #241826

    tomwaltman
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    Sarah is this close to what you have seen in the others? I am sure I have missed some things, but I tried to be as generous as possible in the revenue to see if it was feasible if everything goes well. The numbers do seem like a stretch. I would like to see the Folsom and Rancho numbers, but they will also represent better, less rushed, conditions.

  • #241880

    Sarah Johnson
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    Yes, I saw one that showed 453 people per day, and the first one was 300 per day. No one that I have talked to think these numbers are even possible, and if they might be, it would have been the result of a massive promotional effort over several months, as you pointed out.

  • #241827

    tomwaltman
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    Yeah, and like I said, this presumes an even attendance arc, which is not really possible, as attendance peaks weekly and monthly over time. The actual numbers might be derived from the Folsom and Rancho attendance numbers, but those would represent a telescoped advertising effort. I think the actual numbers are heavily backloaded, nearer Christmas when kids are out of school, with only a slight increase for opening. Those numbers would require many thousands on the weekends near Christmas. I am surprised Laura allowed this to come forward looking like a staff advertisement for the item.

  • #241863

    SteveB6509
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    Thanks for the detailed analysis, Tom. If I am not mistaken, the contract says they will build the rink to hold a capacity of 25,000 through the holiday season. Thus, it seems even if everything were perfect, this would never be break even.

    Also, I vaguely remember (perhaps in the contract to purchase the land) that we need to do an environmental assessment of the property. I would be very worried if this rush would remove this requirement. I tend to lean right on the political spectrum so holding up projects for environmental testing is not normally what I call for. However, railway property is notorious for being contaminated and given that the ice rink will have a predominance of children there, I would be worried about ignoring an environmental look at the property (in fact, this should be done before the purchase closes).

  • #241828

    tomwaltman
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    I think they are counting on some ancillary revenue streams to make up the difference, but I am skeptical about any of those bringing in large enough amounts to matter.

  • #241792

    EGL Admin
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    Based on Tom’s numbers then this looks like a bad deal. Not sure how big the ice rink is, but you probably can’t have more than 40 people at a time. Hours of operation would probably be 11 am to 10 pm. So assuming 10 hours of operation a day to make the numbers easier, you would need 45 people an hour. That’s not going to happen. Possibly at peak times in the evening or weekends. But you have to factor in weather. If its raining people will not be there. The two weeks around Christmas and New Years will be busy but before and after only evenings will be busy. You can’t possibly make up for that time. Sounds like a sweetheart deal for the company. If this was in an area with more businesses then you have them chip in because they stand to benefit from increased traffic or you sell advertising too.

  • #241804

    newmom
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    If the cost to the city wasn’t so much, and it was located in a place with more nearby businesses that would benefit, then it could still be worthwhile, but not with the current numbers. Unless the company is willing to redo the numbers there is no way this is a good deal.

  • #241829

    tomwaltman
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    The contract is on the city website under the agenda item. It gives you the breakdown of payments, some cost info, and the amounts they will charge for skaters, both adult and children. Just crunch the numbers from there.

  • #241864

    SteveB6509
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    Just an FYI, I believe the price was under $10/skater in Rancho last year.

  • #241872

    illbnice
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    So, was the city planning on purchasing that land in the first place? Or, just now for the ice rink? Do we know what that $1 million dollar parcel will be used for after said ice rink?

  • #241830

    tomwaltman
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    Well, it looks like the city staff managed to magically rework the contract in 10 minutes during a break. Somebody must have been very prepared for citizens questioning this deal. Good thing staff had a second contract ready to go just in case. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it looks like they just danced the money around a bit. I don’t expect that it will change the overall outcome, but it looks good for the councilmembers who were pushing this. I wish them good luck.

  • #241881

    Sarah Johnson
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    Who were the councilmembers pushing this?

  • #241831

    tomwaltman
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    Sarah, that is a good question. Somebody with some inside knowledge might want to answer that question. πŸ˜‰

    I did a preliminary run of the numbers based on the Patch report, and it only slightly changes the outcome. Based on an estimate of $290,000, the vendor gets $206,000 and the city gets $84,000. That is break even. And that STILL requires 29,000 attendees during the open period. And it appears the city is taking on a larger share of the related costs as well. This just gets better all the time! I would love to see the final contract to see if there is anything that radically changes that equation. I seriously doubt it, or it would have been reported (you would think in any case).

    Wow. Seems Steve Detrick did his homework on this one.

    By the way, if the rink operators estimates are correct (22,000) then the rink operator still makes $160,000, while the city only makes $60,000. The city bears the costs of operating the shuttles and police for traffic control, as well as other event-related costs. Apparently nobody bothered to talk with there counterparts in Folsom or Rancho…

  • #241882

    Sarah Johnson
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    If it turns out to be successful, great! However, I feel there were a lot of issues that were ignored, minimized, or swept under the rug entirely and it makes me know that we have to always be vigilant because sometimes the staff interpretation of issues are different than ours. Many of us in Old Town were absolutely STUNNED when Detrick balked at the land purchase. Thank goodness Paula Maita was there to tell them how important this was to Elk Grove, not just to Old Town.

  • #241832

    tomwaltman
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    After listening to the meeting audio, I am betting the city loses $90,000.00. That is basedont he infrastructure costs, shuttle and security costs, and the money that will be lost from the ticket revenue. This is still a really bad deal for the city.

    And I didn’t hear anything about Steve’s take on the land purchase. I don’t disagree with the purchase. Not sure why he would disagree, but the purchase was the right thing to do.

  • #241833

    tomwaltman
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    I just caught something I missed earlier. I gathered up some of the other costs and the revenue estimates. The city loses $150,000.

    I know that the Old Town merchants will benefit. I hope it succeeds. I just do not buy that the location will make it work. Jim’s comment about the traffic were right on. Parking is going to be a problem, and may be the limiting factor.

  • #241842

    violarose
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    Who cares about money, this city needs some fun ; )

  • #241815

    Raven
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    I would really like to see it work! And I’m hoping for the best! Right now the site in question is an eyesore for old town

  • #241865

    SteveB6509
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    Wow, does this ever remind me of the days of Briggs, Soares, and Leary (and I can’t forget Sophia and Jim) – projects were sent through with minimal public notice and even less thought.

    I agree that the land purchase makes sense (hopefully the price was reasonable).

  • #241816

    Raven
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    What I don’t understand is why the need for a fence around the parcel after the purchase?

  • #241834

    tomwaltman
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    To keep the kids out of the contaminated land until they can get the hazmat folks out to dig up about 200,000 square yards of dirt. Maybe we can get superfund money for that. πŸ˜‰

  • #241793

    EGL Admin
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    Probably security and liability.

  • #241794

    EGL Admin
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    Guess we will find out how this will all work out. I think Lucy will have a lot of ‘splaining to do if the city loses $150K (or even $50K)

  • #241883

    Sarah Johnson
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    The fence is to be along the railroad tracks, not surrounding the parcel, and is a stipulation of Union Pacific

  • #241817

    Raven
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    In looking at the map included, it looks like the fence will be around the whole parcel. http://www.elkgrovecity.org/documents/agendas/2012/ag-10-24-12-sp.pdf

    Tom, I’ll ask the geologists I work with just what would be involved. πŸ˜‰

  • #241884

    Sarah Johnson
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    Look at the map again. See the black line just inside of the red dashed line? That is the proposed fence, the red dashed line in the perimeter of the parcel.

  • #241866

    SteveB6509
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    Sorry, I think the only explaining will have to be from the City Council. They shouldn’t have to be alerted by the public about the potential perils of this plan. This one was obviously cooked under the covers for a while in collaboration with the Old Town folks. Sure, I would like Old Town to prosper. Should it cost $150K? No.

    Gary and Sophia should be especially alert to this stuff. I am sure they want to look good to the electorate. Of course, all the good comes before the election but any possible negative impacts come after the election so it was easy for them.

    The fence goes along the rail lines and a short segment at the back of the property (furthest from Elk Grove Blvd).

  • #241885

    Sarah Johnson
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    Steve, Not cooked under the covers by Old Town. Most did not know anything about it. We just heard about it last Friday when the agenda came out. So much for representation!

  • #241818

    Raven
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    I saw the black line when I printed it out. Steve, what makes you think the “Old Town folks” cooked this up? Can anybody try to have a positive attitude about this?

  • #241835

    tomwaltman
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    Raven, this is public money. The City Council has an obligation to preform their fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers. Dropping $150K on a test run, given all of the strikes against this item is just bad business. I understand that we want to make this work. I do want it to be successful. But you have to do this at least a little right, or it will be another failure and will make doing things in Old Town that much more difficult.

  • #241867

    SteveB6509
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    My apologies for the cooked up with the Old Town folks implication. I did not mean how it came out. It is just frustrating to see the City have a great idea (the ice rink) and not run with it in the best way possible.

  • #241795

    EGL Admin
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    @tomwaltman 68886 wrote:

    Raven, this is public money. The City Council has an obligation to preform their fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers. Dropping $150K on a test run, given all of the strikes against this item is just bad business. I understand that we want to make this work. I do want it to be successful. But you have to do this at least a little right, or it will be another failure and will make doing things in Old Town that much more difficult.

    I agree we need to be careful and do it right. I don’t think however if its a failure it’s necessarily a black mark on Old Town specifically. If it doesn’t succeed I think it’s a reflection on the city and the residents. Lack of parking will not be an issue. There’s a lot a block or two down. There will be 80 spots there. More just west of the tracks. In Downtown Sac you have to walk farther, drive farther and pay. The other issue will be lack of other things to do while there to go skating but that will be an issue anywhere in Elk Grove. Lets say it was at Target parking, is that going to be a draw for people. Are you going to shop at Target because of this? Are you going eat at one of the restaurants there because of skating? I agree it can be a benefit.

  • #241873

    illbnice
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    I don’t know why it just dawned on me that this is an active railroad track. That shall be um…disruptive.

    I bet I will go skating with the family at least once. I was thinking about the indoor rinks we’ve been to and we simply went for skating and concessions. I would assume this create-a-rink will have concessions. I will not go for the “Old Town” experience because, well, I don’t need knick knacks. If however, they had a coffee shop downtown, I’d be there.

  • #241868

    SteveB6509
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  • #241886

    Sarah Johnson
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    I would like to know the details. What was the cause?

  • #241819

    Raven
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    That’s a disappointment

  • #241799

    joy
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    @Sarah Johnson 68907 wrote:

    I would like to know the details. What was the cause?

    Perhaps they had not realized the public would notice the holes in their plan (or that Tom could do math.)

  • #241848

    kindrlindr
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    Hope it wasn’t my FB post that made them change their mind………..they asked what we thought though. ;o)

  • #241869

    SteveB6509
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    In the end, this was a rushed deal that had not been properly vetted. I also feel it was in the wrong location (can you imagine how incredibly nice an ice rink would be in Elk Grove Park – THAT would be a regional attraction if it were done right!). Somehow, an ice rink with children next to an active train line doesn’t quite do it for me.

    Moving forward, we have lots of time to plan this properly for next year. I would also like to hear the CSD’s view on a rink in the park.

  • #241870

    oldcrank
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    Prevailing wage issues to set up the rink is what sank it.

  • #241796

    EGL Admin
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    In the short term it is disappointing but in the long run it may be best for the city. Things did seen rushed although I’m sure it was in discussion stages earlier. Maybe they can do something else this year and then next year explore a different deal, one that is better for the city and the residents. It seemed like the business had no risk involved. Are they related to the Maloofs? They want us to build it, pay to operate it and then they keep the primary source of revenue and then about the time another tornado touches down in EG the city will see some money. Based on Tom’s numbers the city wouldn’t make a dime because we’re not going to get 450 people on any day let alone average that. Based on a 10 hour day you would need to average 45 people an hour. I don’t know if an ice rink can hold 45 people at one time.

  • #241836

    tomwaltman
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    Actually, it was Kinder’s comments that sank the deal. The City Council read her comments, went into an emergency closed session, and killed the deal. They DID NOT want to face the wrath of Kinder. They know how surly she can be.

  • #241805

    newmom
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    They know not to mess with a mother of 5 boys, one serving our country. She’s an unstoppable force!

  • #241849

    kindrlindr
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    Haha smartasses!! lol

    I would LOVE an ice rink! How fun would that be…..IF it was in a prime accessible location. :o)

    PS trying to book my son a flight home for the holidays before he deploys is proving that no one really cares if you are serving our country or not. LOL All I want is an easy, changeable flight in case the Army changes their mind about his dates. Southwest is the ONLY airline that doesn’t charge a fee, but the closest they fly to him is over 200 miles away. And in NY in the dead of winter? I don’t know that it would be doable.

  • #241843

    violarose
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    Guess I will have to take the girls to nevada to take them skating.
    Sorry Kindrl. I hope your son makes it safety home for the holidays.

  • #241837

    tomwaltman
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    Or downtown Sac… Unless you are going to see mom…

  • #241797

    EGL Admin
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    Looks like it is back on and according to news reports will be substantially the same deal which means bend over and grab your ankles! πŸ™‚

  • #241838

    tomwaltman
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    Yes, it appears that someone really wanted this to happen. I guess they had to tie the Ice Rink guy down and stuff money into his pockets until he gave in. Great job!

  • #241798

    EGL Admin
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    LOL. Guess we will wait and see what happens. I hope this doesn’t end up being an embarrassment to the city and they do a good job and it looks good.

  • #241850

    kindrlindr
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    Wow. When will it be open?

  • #241839

    tomwaltman
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    Thanksgiving. That means they lose two weeks of revenue for the city. I wonder if they cut the guaranteed cash upfront?

  • #241844

    violarose
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    Great news! Thanks E.G. I will make sure to bring my girls down a couple of times this season.

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