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Motorcycle lane splitting

This topic contains 153 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  morgandog 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #172972

    EGL Admin
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    Here’s an item I like almost as much as pit bulls, motorcycle lane spitting.
    I think it is dangerous and the main reason they do it is so they don’t have to wait in traffic. I would love to see it banned.

    http://elkgrove.patch.com/d/articles/poll-should-motorcyclists-be-allowed-to-split-lanes-in-ca

    California is the only place in the country drivers will see motorcyclists squeezing through tiny gaps in traffic and not have to wonder if those riders will get a ticket moments later. It’s the only state where “lane splitting,” or the practice of riding between two cars, is legal (The CHP says so on its website).
    Three motorcyclists go on a 14-minute defense of the practice in a webisode of “RideApart” that was posted last week.

    “It’s safer, it’s more responsible,” motorcycle journalist Wes Siler says in the video. “On a motorcycle, we don’t have crumple zones. We don’t have this built in safety, so we have to take control of that ourselves.”
    He cites a study that says lane-splitting is safer than sitting in traffic because it reduces the risk of being rear-ended by a car.

    “[A person in a car] can be a bad driver all she wants,” he says. “It’s my job not to let her run into me.”
    Nearly 10,000 voters in a poll on autoblog.com were divided on the subject as of Wednesday night, with 50 percent saying they feel it’s an unsafe practice and 43 percent saying they agreed with the practice.
    I’ve been riding a motorcycle for about eight years, and never knew this was such a controversial issue. But according to a California Office of Traffic Safety survey from 2012, only 53 percent of drivers know the practice is legal and 7 percent of drivers have tried to prevent it.

    Readers, where do you stand on this issue? Should California continue to be the sole state to allow lane-splitting by motorcyclists? Vote in the poll below and leave a comment with your thoughts.

  • #245693

    adiffer
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    Do we know any good numbers on whether lane splitters suffer more accidents than non-lane splitters?

    I don’t see how my opinion matters much when it comes to preventing their behaviors unless they are harming themselves and others. If the stats say it actually IS safer or fails to show a causal connection between the behavior and real harm done, I’d rather leave well enough alone.

  • #245732

    Raven
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    I personally don’t split lanes when I’m riding, and most of my friends don’t. I agree with part of what that person is saying. Especially while sitting at a stop light. You would not believe how many idiots do not see you sitting there. Most of the people I see splitting lanes are on crotch rockets and ride like idiots anyway.

  • #245746

    tomwaltman
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    Yeah, i would like to see data on accidents, injuries, and fatalities before creating another law. Being irritated by something that is benign isn’t a good reason for a law.

  • #245722

    doclaguna
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    I think as long as its no more than say 15 MPH greater than the rest of traffic let them do it. The only problem I see is someone lane splitting at 60MPH in traffic that is dead stopped.

    What is your problem with it Doc? Unsafe for whom? I have come to the conclusion the laws need to be rewritten to protect pedestrians, cyclists, and yes probably motorcyclists from careless fat suburban moms in their huge SUVs, with one hand on the cell phone and the other on a triple burger.

  • #245729

    LC
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    And I, on the other hand, would like to see some serious enforcement for Mr. Spandex, riding his bike at 20 mph in the middle of a lane of a 40 mph arterial. These people piss me off bad! Why not use the bike lanes? These are accurate speeds, at least for this example. Mr. Spandex was very aware of my presence and may think twice about not using the bike lanes and blocking traffic next time.

  • #245723

    doclaguna
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    @lc 72793 wrote:

    And I, on the other hand, would like to see some serious enforcement for Mr. Spandex, riding his bike at 20 mph in the middle of a lane of a 40 mph arterial. These people piss me off bad! Why not use the bike lanes? These are accurate speeds, at least for this example. Mr. Spandex was very aware of my presence and may think twice about not using the bike lanes and blocking traffic next time.

    I only go out into traffic in 2 scenarios, and only if I know I’m not cutting off a car. 1. to swing over to the left lane lane to make a left turn, which is much safer for me as a cyclist than using the crosswalk twice. 2. when there is a dedicated right turn lane, the cyclist going straight needs to get over one lane. Trust me most cyclists are much more aware of their surroundings than the idiots in cars. I don’t go a day without someone turning right in front of me when I am going straight, or turning right when I am going straight. This actually happened when I was pacing my wife on one of her runs the other night. This hag saw that we had the crosswalk legally, but pulled into it blocking my wife on foot and me on my bike. She got an earful from my wife who gave her car a nice slap. The other issue is the bike line is for bikes. not walking. not squeezing over. not parking.

  • #245645

    EGL Admin
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    @raven 72782 wrote:

    I personally don’t split lanes when I’m riding, and most of my friends don’t. I agree with part of what that person is saying. Especially while sitting at a stop light. You would not believe how many idiots do not see you sitting there. Most of the people I see splitting lanes are on crotch rockets and ride like idiots anyway.

    Every year we come back from Truckee in September and there is a large group of bikers coming back from Reno and they split lanes all over the place and its not kids. It’s adults on Harley’s.

    Not sure we need a study to show its dangerous. If I’m driving I shouldn’t have to worry about sharing my lane with someone. I shouldn’t have to pull to one side of the lane to keep from bumping into them. Passing a law doesn’t increase government. We don’t add cops or government because of it.

  • #245646

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    @doclaguna 72791 wrote:

    I think as long as its no more than say 15 MPH greater than the rest of traffic let them do it. The only problem I see is someone lane splitting at 60MPH in traffic that is dead stopped.

    What is your problem with it Doc? Unsafe for whom? I have come to the conclusion the laws need to be rewritten to protect pedestrians, cyclists, and yes probably motorcyclists from careless fat suburban moms in their huge SUVs, with one hand on the cell phone and the other on a triple burger.

    Unsafe for them and could be for others because if a car has to swerve to avoid bumping one it could cause other accidents.

  • #245718

    bevone
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    @doclaguna 72791 wrote:

    I think as long as its no more than say 15 MPH greater than the rest of traffic let them do it. The only problem I see is someone lane splitting at 60MPH in traffic that is dead stopped.

    What is your problem with it Doc? Unsafe for whom? I have come to the conclusion the laws need to be rewritten to protect pedestrians, cyclists, and yes probably motorcyclists from careless fat suburban moms in their huge SUVs, with one hand on the cell phone and the other on a triple burger.

    Most of the lane splitting I have seen on the freeways while commuting have been done at fairly slow speeds. People like my SIL who rides a motorcycle are very much aware of how vulnerable they are so they pay close attention especially to what is ahead as far as he can see. I only wish the “Mr. spandexes” and kids would realize they are even more vulnerable and use caution. “Share the Road” is just a cutesy little slogan because a 20 Lb bike vs a 2 ton truck are not an even match when the two collide.

  • #245647

    EGL Admin
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    Then I think two years ago on our way back from Truckee 80 was a parking lot. Heard later it was a motorcycle fatality. No idea what happened but with that many bikers I was not surprised.

    As far as speeds, I’ve seen it up to 60 mph. Usually it’s in the 40-55 range.

  • #245719

    bevone
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    If I ever caught SIL lane splitting at high speeds especially while carrying precious cargo (my daugher) he would get more than an earful from me. However even though I know he has lots of nervous energy he has developed more common sense as he has gotten older so I think (*hope) they will be ok when they are on the road. This is one of those times when I wish she was 15 again so I could tell her “over my dead body”. But once they are adults what can you do? (other than NOT subsidize activites you don’t approve of).

  • #245694

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 72796 wrote:

    Not sure we need a study to show its dangerous. If I’m driving I shouldn’t have to worry about sharing my lane with someone. I shouldn’t have to pull to one side of the lane to keep from bumping into them. Passing a law doesn’t increase government. We don’t add cops or government because of it.

    Ha Ha!
    You are on a roll today… especially with the ‘fact’ that passing a law doesn’t increase government.
    You tempt me to smack you with a copy of the federal register, but then they’d have to haul me in for murder.

    Maybe I can juxtapose your comment with Sea’s about how we should ‘just enforce the laws’. Hmm…

  • #245648

    EGL Admin
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    Will it increase government? Does it add to the payroll? Do they create a special office to oversee it? No. What are the costs? Printing costs?

  • #245695

    adiffer
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    Sigh…

    Court costs.
    Civil service costs associated with processing infractions.

    You can avoid adding staff if you want, but you trade off enforcement of this new law with enforcement of other previous ones. Bureaucrats aren’t supposed to prioritize enforcement as that introduces arbitrariness to enforcement. It is acceptable if they introduce randomness into the enforcement strategy (game theory shows that can still work), but when the odds of enforcement drop low enough people flout them.

    If you don’t already realize this, submit yourself to the nearest libertarian for a smack up-side the head.

    Small goverment MEANS small scope.

  • #245755

    sea
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    @adiffer 72807 wrote:

    Ha Ha!
    You are on a roll today… especially with the ‘fact’ that passing a law doesn’t increase government.
    You tempt me to smack you with a copy of the federal register, but then they’d have to haul me in for murder.

    Maybe I can juxtapose your comment with Sea’s about how we should ‘just enforce the laws’. Hmm…

    I said that when? In relation to what? Is it relative to this particular conversation?

  • #245730

    LC
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    @adiffer 72807 wrote:

    Ha Ha!

    You tempt me to smack you with a copy of the federal register

    I have not actually seen one of those monsters in decades. Are they still in print or just digital?

    DocL:I only go out into traffic in 2 scenarios, and only if I know I’m not cutting off a car. 1. to swing over to the left lane lane to make a left turn, which is much safer for me as a cyclist than using the crosswalk twice. 2. when there is a dedicated right turn lane, the cyclist going straight needs to get over one lane. Trust me most cyclists are much more aware of their surroundings than the idiots in cars.

    That’s very reasonable. I think it’s because we’re so close to the bike trail. We get some real asses on bikes in the ‘hood and on Hazel. Most of them are fine though.

  • #245696

    adiffer
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    Sea,

    No. It was in reference to the gun debate. Your words over there made good sense too, so I’m not knocking you. 8)

    What I’m pointing out is that ‘we the people’ like to put laws on the books and then assume that somehow (magically) that will solve the problem. Those laws mean nothing without people like you willing to wade into a human swamp and drag out the worst of us. Putting them on the books MEANS asking people like you to enforce them and that MEANS a larger scope for authority.

    You might be willing to work at cleaning up a community, but we should be careful in what we ask you to do. The service you give to us should address serious needs we have and that means we should think about whether or not an issue justifies putting you at risk when you serve. I can think of a number of laws I think are entirely useless and an embarrassment when it comes time to ask you to risk body or mind to enforce them. If given a chance, I would strike them from the books while admitting that they are still a problem but not one big enough to justify police action.

  • #245697

    adiffer
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    @lc 72814 wrote:

    I have not actually seen one of those monsters in decades. Are they still in print or just digital?

    I sure hope they’ve gone digital. I wouldn’t be surprised, though, if there is an old requirement for a printed version for the Library of Congress. If a writer for the Avengers ever wanted to get political (happens occasionally) they could just point out that only the Hulk can lift it anymore.

    The Congressional Record isn’t so bad, but that just goes to show how much they have delegated their power to direct the business of government to nonelected officials.

  • #245649

    EGL Admin
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    Al, I don’t think enforcing lane splitting means you necessarily take away from other areas of enforcement. They look for speeders, DUI and illegal lane changing. Lane splitting is stupid. It’s no different than excessive speeding or unsafe lane changes.

    As far as bicyclists, I see just as many idiots on bikes who are clueless. They don’t stop at stop signs or sometimes even lights. I know that once you get going on a bike it does suck to have to stop

  • #245747

    tomwaltman
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    @lc 72814 wrote:

    I have not actually seen one of those monsters in decades. Are they still in print or just digital?

    I happen to have a copy of a very small portion on my desk right now. Part of the HUD section… The whole danged thing would fill my office.

  • #245698

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 72818 wrote:

    Al, I don’t think enforcing lane splitting means you necessarily take away from other areas of enforcement. They look for speeders, DUI and illegal lane changing. Lane splitting is stupid. It’s no different than excessive speeding or unsafe lane changes.

    That’s why I was asking for stats. There are ALL SORTS of things that I think are true about the world, but you aren’t inclined to accept them blindly as the basis for good policy, right? Let’s be even handed about these things and suspect that everyone is deluded until we have some decent evidence suggesting they aren’t.

    Personally, I think lane splitting is dangerous. Every time a motor cycle passes me (both sides) by splitting the lane, they startle me. Fortunately my reactions don’t show up as changes to the speed or direction of my truck, but if I’m easily startled I’m sure many others are too and they might do something unsafe. What I truly worry about with lane splitters, though, is that I won’t see them and go to make a lane change myself and hit them with a glancing blow. That will quite possibly take the bike out from under them and they will slide into one of the lanes of traffic or bounce off someone’s vehicle. At even moderate speeds such a collision could kill them, but I would probably escape with only minor problems. I’d rather not have to live with the thought that my inability to see them got them killed.

    My opinions on the safety of lane splitting shouldn’t be enough to move anyone to do more than wonder about the stats, though. Advocates have a good point about being vulnerable while sitting behind a stopped vehicle. I have a friend who rides and he explained he won’t lane split once speeds get too high or differential speeds get too high, but he feels safer doing it when traffic is mostly stopped. Startled drivers of stopped cars can’t do much harm, right? 8)

    Show me the stats. I’m an empiricist at heart. 8)

    Quote:
    As far as bicyclists, I see just as many idiots on bikes who are clueless. They don’t stop at stop signs or sometimes even lights. I know that once you get going on a bike it does suck to have to stop

    It sucks worse to get hit, but that should be obvious. I have friends who do the spandex thing who take the rules very seriously. They generally argue it is safer to annoy a driver by making them go around you than it is to not get noticed by trying to stay away from them. Unless the bike lane is detached from the road, you WANT the drivers to see you. Ideally you want them to believe you are saying ‘please don’t kill me’ and not ‘F*ck off! This is my road too!’ 8)

  • #245771

    Karen
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    I’m too lazy to look it up right now, but I remember reading somewhere that it’s only legal if traffic is moving at less than a certain MPH, maybe 45? If traffic is stopped or slowed, I think it’s fine. When traffic is moving faster, it’s stupid.

  • #245758

    ErinO
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    There isn’t anything inherently dangerous about lane splitting. If riders do it recklessly, then that’s a problem.

    Isn’t this the same as the gun debate? Is it the guns that are dangerous or the gun owners? Is it the practice of lane splitting that is dangerous or the riders who do it dangerously? I dunno….

  • #245776

    morgandog
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    Ok. Here it is from a motorcyclist of 40 years point of view AND learned how to ride by a Motor CHP. Get over it people because it is legal and it is call lane sharing. If two cars could split it would be legal and many would do it. It only pisses most of you off because we get there faster than you do sitting in your car! With that said I to believe that there are fools the split lanes way to damn fast. If the traffic is slow stopped or creeping along, I am in control of my bike. It pisses me off when some of you fool finds it their duty to try enforce a law that doesn’t exist and to move over and cut us off or to squeeze us out of that spot. If we crash due to that BS it can be your fault if witnessed and this is one of the reasons why so many rider now us gopro cameras on the bars.
    Again, tell me how lane sharing / splitting traffic hurts you? If I was to wait for some of the fool driving a car to get out of the way or to wait to see what they are going to do some moron behind me wont see me and run my butt over. Motor Cops do it and they are not the only professional rides out there. Admit it people, what is the real truth if it is done at safe speed? It is because you are stuck in your car and I am ahead of you now! Right? Most of the time we are past you before you even know it. I drive and ride 1/2 mile ahead of my view so I can see what will of can happen before it does. And yes just like any of you accidents do happen. And yes it does some time scare you when we pass because it catches you off guard which proves the point that some people do not pay attention front and back as a good professional rider does, but when deep in thought even a loud fart can scare you!

  • #245759

    ErinO
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    I think you are right, Morgandog.

  • #245733

    Raven
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    @morgandog 72827 wrote:

    Ok. Here it is from a motorcyclist of 40 years point of view AND learned how to ride by a Motor CHP. Get over it people because it is legal and it is call lane sharing. If two cars could split it would be legal and many would do it. It only pisses most of you off because we get there faster than you do sitting in your car! With that said I to believe that there are fools the split lanes way to damn fast. If the traffic is slow stopped or creeping along, I am in control of my bike. It pisses me off when some of you fool finds it their duty to try enforce a law that doesn’t exist and to move over and cut us off or to squeeze us out of that spot. If we crash due to that BS it can be your fault if witnessed and this is one of the reasons why so many rider now us gopro cameras on the bars.
    Again, tell me how lane sharing / splitting traffic hurts you? If I was to wait for some of the fool driving a car to get out of the way or to wait to see what they are going to do some moron behind me wont see me and run my butt over. Motor Cops do it and they are not the only professional rides out there. Admit it people, what is the real truth if it is done at safe speed? It is because you are stuck in your car and I am ahead of you now! Right? Most of the time we are past you before you even know it. I drive and ride 1/2 mile ahead of my view so I can see what will of can happen before it does. And yes just like any of you accidents do happen. And yes it does some time scare you when we pass because it catches you off guard which proves the point that some people do not pay attention front and back as a good professional rider does, but when deep in thought even a loud fart can scare you!

    :applause: :applause: I think docs is the only one that bothers.

  • #245734

    Raven
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    Morgandog, what do you ride? I have an 84 Shovelhead and it’s a money pit right now!!!

  • #245777

    morgandog
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    Raven I had sold everything to build my Jeep. But up until then everything from Sporster, CBR, Ninja, Virago, V45 & V65 Magna, V Start and Road Star. Although I have ridden every thing from mini baike at 5 years old to Kawasaki 250 enduro KX500 Husqvarna 250,360 400, KTM Exc, KLX 650 dirt I turned into a dual sport to Three wheelers to Quads. It is in my blood and raced off road for many years. So pretty much everything. And Sacramento has to be the worse place of all to ride! There are a couple of boot prints in car doors from close call in MY OWN LANE.

  • #245724

    doclaguna
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    @morgandog 72827 wrote:

    Ok. Here it is from a motorcyclist of 40 years point of view AND learned how to ride by a Motor CHP. Get over it people because it is legal and it is call lane sharing. If two cars could split it would be legal and many would do it. It only pisses most of you off because we get there faster than you do sitting in your car! With that said I to believe that there are fools the split lanes way to damn fast. If the traffic is slow stopped or creeping along, I am in control of my bike. It pisses me off when some of you fool finds it their duty to try enforce a law that doesn’t exist and to move over and cut us off or to squeeze us out of that spot. If we crash due to that BS it can be your fault if witnessed and this is one of the reasons why so many rider now us gopro cameras on the bars.
    Again, tell me how lane sharing / splitting traffic hurts you? If I was to wait for some of the fool driving a car to get out of the way or to wait to see what they are going to do some moron behind me wont see me and run my butt over. Motor Cops do it and they are not the only professional rides out there. Admit it people, what is the real truth if it is done at safe speed? It is because you are stuck in your car and I am ahead of you now! Right? Most of the time we are past you before you even know it. I drive and ride 1/2 mile ahead of my view so I can see what will of can happen before it does. And yes just like any of you accidents do happen. And yes it does some time scare you when we pass because it catches you off guard which proves the point that some people do not pay attention front and back as a good professional rider does, but when deep in thought even a loud fart can scare you!

    I stopped at it only pisses most of you off because… That seems to be the truth… 🙂

  • #245650

    EGL Admin
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    Without motorcycle riders we would have less organ donors.

  • #245651

    EGL Admin
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    @raven 72830 wrote:

    :applause: :applause: I think docs is the only one that bothers.

    Apparently not since it was in was in the Patch.

  • #245735

    Raven
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    @EGL Admin 72778 wrote:

    Here’s an item I like almost as much as pit bulls, motorcycle lane spitting.
    I think it is dangerous and the main reason they do it is so they don’t have to wait in traffic. I would love to see it banned.

    So you didn’t say this?

  • #245725

    doclaguna
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    @EGL Admin 72842 wrote:

    Without motorcycle riders we would have less organ donors.

    You mean donorcycles? That’s what we call them. The libertarian in me is not bothered by this.

  • #245778

    morgandog
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    donorecycles, murdercycles, suicycles all the same and we are still ahead of traffic. Just to be clear about the donor issue. There are actually less Motorcycle victims that can donated organs. When an accident happens a rider is mostly killed due to torso damage from impact and most of the organs are damaged. It is very rare that only the head is run over.
    I would tend to believe that most of the people on the patch voted the way they did because of the reason in my thread or are from the other EGL website and have the gang/sheeple mentality. Your poll above says different than the patch.
    Again, what does it do to hurt a person that votes against it and doesn’t like it as it is legal?

  • #245699

    adiffer
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    Except for being startled, I don’t mind that you all get there first. Personally, I would rather not be the first vehicle through an intersection after a light change. That’s the one that gets hit by some idiot trying to make the light in the other direction. I much prefer to lose the race and take second or third place. There are similar risks in other situations you all take that I would rather not too. 8)

    I do get startled, but that is mostly a visibility issue. When something comes out of my blindspots, my mind jumps to the possibilities that I hit someone or that someone is approaching me with an intention of interacting. My visibility is enough to be technically legal, but I wear glasses with a strong prescription and don’t have the peripheral vision most people do. My startle reaction isn’t always due to me being tuned out while I drive. 8)

  • #245779

    morgandog
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    My visibility is enough to be “technically legal”, but I wear glasses with a strong prescription and don’t have the peripheral vision most people do.

    Respectfully, if you do drive that is scary. No diss intended either.

  • #245766

    Anonymous
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    @EGL Admin 72842 wrote:

    Without motorcycle riders we would have less organ donors.

    Motorcycles kill…..

    I have a few amendments I would like to add to the law regarding motorcycle riding in the US.

    1. Before you buy a motorcycle you need to make sure you are mentally stable enough to be on the road. This requires a Dr Checkup and a mandatory appointment with a Psychologist.

    2. You aren’t allowed to put any accessories on your bike or else it would be classified as an “Assault Bike”

    3. Gas tanks are limited to 1 gallon. You shouldn’t be able to drive too far without having to stop and refill.

    4. Speed limit will not be able to exceed 25 miles an hour. Motorcycles kill and we must protect the citizens…

    5. Lastly, you can only ride on roads that are made of bubble wrap and Styrofoam

    YA! I get it. “You can’t compare guns and cars, they are totally different…” :beatdead: :stir: :sarcastic

    You are right, one is a right, and the other is a privilege

  • #245767

    Anonymous
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    @karen 72824 wrote:

    I’m too lazy to look it up right now, but I remember reading somewhere that it’s only legal if traffic is moving at less than a certain MPH, maybe 45? If traffic is stopped or slowed, I think it’s fine. When traffic is moving faster, it’s stupid.

    You are on the right track. I don’t remember exactly. But its something like you can’t exceed 10-15 MPH faster than the traffic around you and you can’t Lane share when traffic is going more then 25-30MPH.

    I used to share lanes. But ONLY when traffic was stopped on the freeway, or I would ride to the front of the line at a red light. The idiots you see sharing the lane when traffic is going 50+ aren’t following the laws.

  • #245652

    EGL Admin
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    @raven 72845 wrote:

    So you didn’t say this?

    Yes I did. You said I’m the only one that bothers. I got the article from the Patch so it’s not just me.

  • #245653

    EGL Admin
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    @doclaguna 72846 wrote:

    You mean donorcycles? That’s what we call them. The libertarian in me is not bothered by this.

    I don’t care if they kill themselves but they cause other accidents. We had one lane splitter come on the passenger side and hit our side mirror and keep going. It damaged it. We went after him and called the CHP but he got away.

  • #245780

    morgandog
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    @CJay916 72855 wrote:

    Motorcycles kill…..

    I have a few amendments I would like to add to the law regarding motorcycle riding in the US.

    1. Before you buy a motorcycle you need to make sure you are mentally stable enough to be on the road. This requires a Dr Checkup and a mandatory appointment with a Psychologist.

    2. You aren’t allowed to put any accessories on your bike or else it would be classified as an “Assault Bike”

    3. Gas tanks are limited to 1 gallon. You shouldn’t be able to drive too far without having to stop and refill.

    4. Speed limit will not be able to exceed 25 miles an hour. Motorcycles kill and we must protect the citizens…

    5. Lastly, you can only ride on roads that are made of bubble wrap and Styrofoam

    YA! I get it. “You can’t compare guns and cars, they are totally different…” :beatdead: :stir: :sarcastic

    You are right, one is a right, and the other is a privilege

    :applause:
    IALMAO! That was great Clay…………… Thanks for the laugh!

  • #245781

    morgandog
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    Sea,
    Do you have any insight about the law on this issue.

  • #245736

    Raven
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    @CJay916 72855 wrote:

    Motorcycles kill…..

    I have a few amendments I would like to add to the law regarding motorcycle riding in the US.

    1. Before you buy a motorcycle you need to make sure you are mentally stable enough to be on the road. This requires a Dr Checkup and a mandatory appointment with a Psychologist.

    2. You aren’t allowed to put any accessories on your bike or else it would be classified as an “Assault Bike”

    3. Gas tanks are limited to 1 gallon. You shouldn’t be able to drive too far without having to stop and refill.

    4. Speed limit will not be able to exceed 25 miles an hour. Motorcycles kill and we must protect the citizens…

    5. Lastly, you can only ride on roads that are made of bubble wrap and Styrofoam

    YA! I get it. “You can’t compare guns and cars, they are totally different…” :beatdead: :stir: :sarcastic

    You are right, one is a right, and the other is a privilege

    Great post!!! :thumb Great post!!!!

    Maybe we should outlaw everything and wrap ourselves up in bubblewrap and not have a life!!

  • #245737

    Raven
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    Geez!!! I’m a conservative, I believe in personal responsibility, I’m all for bringing businesses to Elk Grove, I have big dogs, I have guns, I have a motorcycle.

  • #245700

    adiffer
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    @morgandog 72852 wrote:

    My visibility is enough to be “technically legal”, but I wear glasses with a strong prescription and don’t have the peripheral vision most people do.

    Respectfully, if you do drive that is scary. No diss intended either.

    Heh. Yes it is scary. I compensate by using large side mirrors. They aren’t meant to stop the lane sharing folks, but I do try to look out for you.

    I say this to point out that a driver can be quite legal and not have good peripheral vision. Those of you in or on the other vehicle need to account for that. I’ll do my best. I’ve managed to avoid anything worse than bumping into cars in parking lots (first time just a few months ago) and I’m 50 now, but there is always a chance for a first time. Be careful out there.

  • #245720

    bevone
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    @morgandog 72827 wrote:

    Ok. Here it is from a motorcyclist of 40 years point of view AND learned how to ride by a Motor CHP. Get over it people because it is legal and it is call lane sharing. If two cars could split it would be legal and many would do it. It only pisses most of you off because we get there faster than you do sitting in your car! With that said I to believe that there are fools the split lanes way to damn fast. If the traffic is slow stopped or creeping along, I am in control of my bike. It pisses me off when some of you fool finds it their duty to try enforce a law that doesn’t exist and to move over and cut us off or to squeeze us out of that spot. If we crash due to that BS it can be your fault if witnessed and this is one of the reasons why so many rider now us gopro cameras on the bars.
    Again, tell me how lane sharing / splitting traffic hurts you? If I was to wait for some of the fool driving a car to get out of the way or to wait to see what they are going to do some moron behind me wont see me and run my butt over. Motor Cops do it and they are not the only professional rides out there. Admit it people, what is the real truth if it is done at safe speed? It is because you are stuck in your car and I am ahead of you now! Right? Most of the time we are past you before you even know it. I drive and ride 1/2 mile ahead of my view so I can see what will of can happen before it does. And yes just like any of you accidents do happen. And yes it does some time scare you when we pass because it catches you off guard which proves the point that some people do not pay attention front and back as a good professional rider does, but when deep in thought even a loud fart can scare you!

    My SIL lane splits at a slow speed on 99 so he can get to and from his downtown job quicker. And remember a safe and sane biker doesn’t just hop on the bike and take off. He or she takes the time to put on layers of protective gear plus helmet and puts up with riding in inclement weather to save commute time. He is a very focused and defensive rider. Us drivers don’t have to go through the same amount of prepping before getting on the road.

  • #245762

    omgnate
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    Loud farts do scare me..I’m old…

  • #245721

    bevone
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    @omgnate 72884 wrote:

    Loud farts do scare me..I’m old…

    The noise or the scent???

  • #245654

    EGL Admin
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    @morgandog 72827 wrote:

    Ok. Here it is from a motorcyclist of 40 years point of view AND learned how to ride by a Motor CHP. Get over it people because it is legal and it is call lane sharing. If two cars could split it would be legal and many would do it. It only pisses most of you off because we get there faster than you do sitting in your car! With that said I to believe that there are fools the split lanes way to damn fast. If the traffic is slow stopped or creeping along, I am in control of my bike. It pisses me off when some of you fool finds it their duty to try enforce a law that doesn’t exist and to move over and cut us off or to squeeze us out of that spot. If we crash due to that BS it can be your fault if witnessed and this is one of the reasons why so many rider now us gopro cameras on the bars.
    Again, tell me how lane sharing / splitting traffic hurts you? If I was to wait for some of the fool driving a car to get out of the way or to wait to see what they are going to do some moron behind me wont see me and run my butt over. Motor Cops do it and they are not the only professional rides out there. Admit it people, what is the real truth if it is done at safe speed? It is because you are stuck in your car and I am ahead of you now! Right? Most of the time we are past you before you even know it. I drive and ride 1/2 mile ahead of my view so I can see what will of can happen before it does. And yes just like any of you accidents do happen. And yes it does some time scare you when we pass because it catches you off guard which proves the point that some people do not pay attention front and back as a good professional rider does, but when deep in thought even a loud fart can scare you!

    So you split lanes at stop lights because you’re driving a vehicle (motorcycle) that’s hard for others to see and it’s not safe to be parked at a light behind a car? Ok. I think that’s downside of riding a motorcycle. It’s not as safe as a car. It’s also something you know and accept as part of riding a motorcycle. If you’re afraid of getting hit then drive a car. Just knowing that people are often inattentive when driving and CHOOSING to ride between two moving vehicles with only sometimes a few inches of room is not very smart.

    I would never swerve to block someone from lane splitting but I won’t pull over in to one side to allow it either. They won’t try it when I’m in my truck because my mirrors stick out pretty far and can easily catch one of the knuckleheads.

  • #245782

    morgandog
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    That cool Doc because I have never asked any one to move out of my way. The biggest threat while riding is a vehicle even if we do everything as safe as possible. There are way to many morons out there that do not pay attention and dont even consider a motorcycle being there even if I was doing everything you feel I should do to be safe. Again I am looking way up the road and side to side and am very aware of my surroundings. I would much rather be in control of my own destiny than have some who doesnt even pay attention ( cell phones, coffee, dog on larp, eating Old and cant see, oral sex, masturbating, sleepy, drunk etc.) for what ever the reason may be than be taken out and hurt or killed. You dont ride so you really cant understand. Please dont move over for me as you have places to go and you you dont care to share the road with a motorcycle. I have no problem going around you. I will say this though, you made it clear that you dont like it when we do split lanes. If a car needs a couple of inches to pass you on the right at a signal to make aright hand turn will you give them the room to do so if you can and have the room to move over? If so why not for a motorcycle and again it is legal to do? If you dont in either case and this is just my opinion, you are not a friendly, courteous driver which falls under another topic completely. Why not if you have the room share the road? Remember most every time we are past you before you know we are even there.
    And to be clear, when at a stop light unlike so many I look both way to absolutely sure no one is coming before proceeding into the intersection. But I do that in a car too!

  • #245655

    EGL Admin
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    The difference is you can see a car. Motorcycles come out of no where. I check my mirrors frequently but I’m more focused ahead what’s directly behind me. I always try to know how much room I have in case of an emergency. If I’m in freeway traffic going 50 and its congested, I shouldn’t have to move to one side of my lane to allow you to pass because 50 isn’t fast enough in traffic. It’s your life and if you and others feel its worth the risk to do it then go for it. I’m not going to pull close to another car on the freeway to make it easier for YOU. If there’s an accident between me and the other car I’m stuck with the bill because you didn’t want to wait. I think it’s selfish. I can see your point at stop lights and it being safer. Doing it on the freeway is not about safety. Sitting in traffic is safer than driving between two vehicles. All bikers want to do is get there quicker and it’s all about them.

  • #245656

    EGL Admin
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    Remember most every time we are past you before you know we are even there.

    That’s not a good thing to be driving along and all the sudden have someone squeezing between you and another car. That’s more dangerous and you’re obviously aware that the drivers don’t know you are there and still do it.

  • #245783

    morgandog
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    I’ll beat this dead horse. lol
    I get it that it pisses you off and you think it is selfish and unsafe. But look at my post #25 and tell me where I said that 50 mile an hour is acceptable. As a matter of fact I spoke quit differently about the speed. I also asked you if you would move for a car not an emergency vehicle because everyone move over or should for them. I also asked the question about a traffic signal and not at 50mph on the freeway. Two different thinks Doc! So, my question if it is at a “safe speed” say 2-5 mph or if you are “at a signal” would you move over for a “car” to turn right? (post 51) If not who is selfish? And that would be all about you!
    And what is the big deal that if we are past you and gone before you know it, how is it unsafe for you? Can me selfish if you want but “lane sharing” is legal and if we can get around safely and at “a safe speed” what is the real problem?

  • #245760

    ErinO
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    Cars will always be a bigger danger to motorcycles than motorcycles are to cars. The “safety” concerns mentioned here don’t ring true.

  • #245657

    EGL Admin
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    @erino 72894 wrote:

    Cars will always be a bigger danger to motorcycles than motorcycles are to cars. The “safety” concerns mentioned here don’t ring true.

    The safety issue is regarding causing an accident where one car collides with another or a truck because of the motorcycle. It’s not just a danger to the biker but it can and has caused accidents leading to collateral damage but of course none of that matters to the biker who doesn’t want to be stuck in traffic. Their time is more important.

  • #245784

    morgandog
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    @EGL Admin 72896 wrote:

    The safety issue is regarding causing an accident where one car collides with another or a truck because of the motorcycle. It’s not just a danger to the biker but it can and has caused accidents leading to collateral damage but of course none of that matters to the biker who doesn’t want to be stuck in traffic. Their time is more important.

    Thats a very Liberal point of view that it is someone else fault. That falls under following to close. That would matter even to a person driving a car!

  • #245658

    EGL Admin
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    @morgandog 72897 wrote:

    Thats a very Liberal point of view that it is someone else fault. That falls under following to close. That would matter even to a person driving a car!

    So if you pull between two cars and one car moves over to avoid hitting you and it’s another car it’s not your fault? The lanes weren’t made for a car and a motorcycle. Why can’t you just be patient and wait?

    So, my question if it is at a “safe speed” say 2-5 mph or if you are “at a signal” would you move over for a “car” to turn right?

    Not sure I understand the question. Why would I need to move over for a car to turn right?

    If I am at a stop light and a biker comes between me and another car, I don’t really care because we are stopped. I don’t buy it’s as much about safety for the biker as it is they don’t want to wait at the stop light.

    On the freeway it’s different. If a car is signaling they want to pull into my lane, I will slow down and let them do it. I shouldn’t have to share my lane though and worry that if I move over 6 inches that I might clip a biker. It won’t be my fault if it happens because they have no business doing it. The onus would be on them to prove I was unsafe when they were trying to squeeze between 2 cars. I don’t think anyone would buy that. I’m not going to move over to the side because you don’t want to wait. If you want to pass then pull into the other lane and pass by the car. It’s common courtesy on your part.

  • #245727

    joy
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    I would really like to know what the law actually is on the freeway.

    As for stop lights, I can see not wanting to be the last in line. I have been hit from behind while waiting at a stoplight on EG Blvd. It barely left a mark on my bumper but it would surely have injured a someone on a motorcycle.

  • #245738

    Raven
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    From CHP:

    Lane Splitting Guidelines

    Lane splitting in a safe and prudent manner is not illegal in the state of California. The term lane splitting, sometimes known as lane sharing, filtering or white-lining, refers to the process of a motorcyclist riding between lanes of stopped or slower moving traffic or moving between lanes to the front of traffic stopped at a traffic light.

    Motorcyclists who are competent enough riders to lane split, should follow these general guidelines if choosing to lane split:

    1) Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic – danger increases at higher speed differentials.

    2) It is not advisable to lane split when traffic flow is at 30 mph or faster – danger increases as overall speed increases.

    3) Typically, it is more desirable to split between the #1 and #2 lanes than between other lanes.

    4) Consider the total environment in which you are splitting, including the width of the lanes, size of surrounding vehicles, as well as roadway, weather, and lighting conditions.

    5) Be alert and anticipate possible movements by other road users.

    The Four R’s or “Be-Attitudes” of Lane Splitting:
    Be Reasonable, be Responsible, be Respectful, be aware of all Roadway and traffic conditions.

    Note:These general guidelines are not guaranteed to keep you safe. Lane splitting should not be performed by inexperienced riders. These guidelines assume a high level of riding competency and experience. Every rider has ultimate responsibility for his or her own decision making and safety. Riders must be conscious of reducing crash risk at all times.

    Messages for Other Vehicle Drivers

    Lane splitting by motorcycles is not illegal in California when done in a safe and prudent manner.
    Motorists should not take it upon themselves to discourage motorcyclists from lane splitting.

    – Intentionally blocking or impeding a motorcyclist in a way that could cause harm to the rider is illegal (CVC 22400).

    – Opening a vehicle door to impede a motorcycle is illegal (CVC 22517).

    Getting everyone home safe is a shared responsibility.

  • #245739

    Raven
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    @EGL Admin 72796 wrote:

    Every year we come back from Truckee in September and there is a large group of bikers coming back from Reno and they split lanes all over the place and its not kids. It’s adults on Harley’s.

    I find this very hard to believe. I have been going on runs my whole life. Bikers on a run will ride in groups. It’s safer and it’s a biker thing.

  • #245763

    omgnate
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    I’m old, when a bike suddenly appears on the side of my big old SUV, it startles me…It is nerve racking at times, i never saw this til i moved to CA…but, if its legal, ok, I just pray I am never the one to get shocked, over compensate and make someone lay down their bike..I saw an awful bike accident years ago..The biker was hit so hard his feet were turned backwards..that sight will never leave me..nor his screams of pain..

  • #245728

    joy
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    My father, who has ridden motorcycles over the course of much of his life, has a really nice Harley but he rarely ever rides it anymore. He is a cautious person and the risk these days outweighs the reward for him. Ironically, he has been first on the scene at two horrific motorcycle accidents in his life. With one, he basically comforted the rider while he died, and with the other he helped a rider whose lower leg had been sheared off by one of those thick metal cables that sometimes go from the ground up to heavy duty power poles or transformer type things. He had to sit there with the guy until help arrived trying to help as much as he could while the dude’s boot with his leg in it sat there off to the side. Somehow his zest for riding decreased after that incident.

  • #245659

    EGL Admin
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    @raven 72906 wrote:

    I find this very hard to believe. I have been going on runs my whole life. Bikers on a run will ride in groups. It’s safer and it’s a biker thing.

    I don’t embellish or make stuff up like some folks. There are hundreds of bikers coming back from Reno and while many ride together like responsible bikers there are quite a few that groups that do lane split. It ends up backing up the traffic for everyone else because essentially they are cutting in front of people.

    The current law as with many laws leaves it up to interpretation just as driving too slow is as well. When I’m driving my truck there is definitely not much room due to the mirrors. I’m not moving over to one side. Use the existing lanes to pass.

  • #245660

    EGL Admin
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    Why not just be honest and say “I don’t want to wait in traffic and I get to where I want faster by lane splitting.” ? Bikers would still be selfish wankers but at least be honest selfish wankers. The whole safety line is a bunch of baloney because if safety was important you wouldn’t be on a bike. If you want the wind in face roll down the window and stick your head out. 😉

  • #245748

    tomwaltman
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    Everyone needs to be driving a Volvo sedan. Outlaw everything else so that we are all SAFE. Governors that keep anyone from going over 25 MPH. Nobody NEEDS a truck or SUV. Safety is the most important thing. Wait, how about those self driving cars that don’t allow people to have ANY input. That would be great! Safety for ALL! Remember to wear your government approved clothes when in the car. The ones with the built in bubble wrap.

  • #245740

    Raven
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    OK docs. WHATEVER!!! You are doing the same thing to this conversation that you do to EVERY conversation. You are right and everybody else is wrong. And I STILL don’t believe your story about bikers cutting people off.

  • #245661

    EGL Admin
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    @raven 72924 wrote:

    OK docs. WHATEVER!!! You are doing the same thing to this conversation that you do to EVERY conversation. You are right and everybody else is wrong. And I STILL don’t believe your story about bikers cutting people off.

    What you want is a one sided discussion where others are not allowed to give a different opinion. I didn’t say anyone was wrong or right. I’m giving my opinion based on what I’ve observed and what some are glossing over, which is safety to others as well, not just bikers. Omgnate pointed out it startles her to have a biker come up along side her. Have had it startle me and I usually check my mirrors very frequently. There is not much room if you have a larger vehicle.

  • #245662

    EGL Admin
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    @tomwaltman 72921 wrote:

    Everyone needs to be driving a Volvo sedan. Outlaw everything else so that we are all SAFE. Governors that keep anyone from going over 25 MPH. Nobody NEEDS a truck or SUV. Safety is the most important thing. Wait, how about those self driving cars that don’t allow people to have ANY input. That would be great! Safety for ALL! Remember to wear your government approved clothes when in the car. The ones with the built in bubble wrap.

    Does a tin foil cap come with that? 😉

  • #245754

    Curlzz01
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    The guys that really scare me are the Idiots usually on crotch rockets who are hauling ass down city surface streets where the speed limit is around 35mph… THey are lane splitting then cutting in and out of traffic to get to the light first I suppose… Everytime I get cut off I’m afraid the idiot will go down right in front of me where I won’t have time to stop and run him over and kill him… As far as the freeway lane splitters I have seen a few idiots that get pretty close to my mirrors but that is about it.. I rode bikes for years.. I quit riding when I moved to Sacramento in the 80’s..

  • #245749

    tomwaltman
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    @EGL Admin 72927 wrote:

    Does a tin foil cap come with that? 😉

    If that is what your government issues, then I suggest you wear it…

  • #245785

    morgandog
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    @EGL Admin 72916 wrote:

    Why not just be honest and say “I don’t want to wait in traffic and I get to where I want faster by lane splitting.” ? Bikers would still be selfish wankers but at least be honest selfish wankers. The whole safety line is a bunch of baloney because if safety was important you wouldn’t be on a bike. If you want the wind in face roll down the window and stick your head out. 😉

    Ok if you want to hear it I will say it! I WANT TO GET THERE FASTER THAN YOU DO! I DONT WANT TO WAIT MY TURN! Really its more that I dont want to wait for fat ass trucks that feel they rule the road to get out of the way. Drive through your front window Doc and not out your rear view mirror! I pisses me off that you group every rider as unsafe. So I am guessing that Motor Cops should not be on bikes? They are unsafe? It is a fact that there rider out there that put way more miles on a bike than a Motor Cop does. Does this make them less safe than a Motor Cop? So by your statement that riding a MC is unsafe we should take cops of bikes too! Admit it Doc that it pisses you off that we get there faster than you! Yes if thats the way you want to see it then “Yes I want to get there before you do so I dont have to wait for your to park the big gas guzzling pig called a truck. I hear your piece and respect it but you dont own the road or make the laws. Like I said dont move over I will go around your BIG truck without issue. Mirrors or not I dont care as I said before I am paying attention to everything although sometimes a surprise may come my way just as it happen in a BIG truck that can care less about anyone else on the road but emergency vehicles and himself.Get over it because it is legal to lane share. Safe or unsafe it is legal and I will continue to do so until its not. Worry more about the texter than bikes, that is a way bigger issue than a motorcycle.

  • #245741

    Raven
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    @morgandog 72931 wrote:

    Ok if you want to hear it I will say it! I WANT TO GET THERE FASTER THAN YOU DO! I DONT WANT TO WAIT MY TURN! Really its more that I dont want to wait for fat ass trucks that feel they rule the road to get out of the way. Drive through your front window Doc and not out your rear view mirror! I pisses me off that you group every rider as unsafe. So I am guessing that Motor Cops should not be on bikes? They are unsafe? It is a fact that there rider out there that put way more miles on a bike than a Motor Cop does. Does this make them less safe than a Motor Cop? So by your statement that riding a MC is unsafe we should take cops of bikes too! Admit it Doc that it pisses you off that we get there faster than you! Yes if thats the way you want to see it then “Yes I want to get there before you do so I dont have to wait for your to park the big gas guzzling pig called a truck. I hear your piece and respect it but you dont own the road or make the laws. Like I said dont move over I will go around your BIG truck without issue. Mirrors or not I dont care as I said before I am paying attention to everything although sometimes a surprise may come my way just as it happen in a BIG truck that can care less about anyone else on the road but emergency vehicles and himself.Get over it because it is legal to lane share. Safe or unsafe it is legal and I will continue to do so until its not. Worry more about the texter than bikes, that is a way bigger issue than a motorcycle.

    :applause::applause::applause:

    Very well said!!! People in the big SUVs and big trucks are the worse!! They don’t look around and see what vehicles are around them!!! I have a small car and I can’t tell you how many times I have been cut off by a large SUV. They think they own the road!!! The ONLY time I lane split was to go to the the front on a lane at a stop light.

  • #245761

    ErinO
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    @EGL Admin 72916 wrote:

    Why not just be honest and say “I don’t want to wait in traffic and I get to where I want faster by lane splitting.” ? Bikers would still be selfish wankers but at least be honest selfish wankers. The whole safety line is a bunch of baloney because if safety was important you wouldn’t be on a bike. If you want the wind in face roll down the window and stick your head out. 😉

    I think that goes without saying. Who would WANT to wait in traffic if they didn’t have to? Motorcyclist can split lanes because they are smaller and fit between cars. Many motorcyclist will tell you “getting there faster” is a primary reason for riding a motorcycle. I don’t think that makes them “bad.” It’s just reality.

  • #245750

    tomwaltman
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    But to Doc, that makes other people…different. And they are not doing the…same things as other people. They are…individuals. I can see the smoke coming out of his ears now. “I MUST CONTROL THEM!!!”

  • #245663

    EGL Admin
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    @erino 72938 wrote:

    I think that goes without saying. Who would WANT to wait in traffic if they didn’t have to? Motorcyclist can split lanes because they are smaller and fit between cars. Many motorcyclist will tell you “getting there faster” is a primary reason for riding a motorcycle. I don’t think that makes them “bad.” It’s just reality.

    Thank you! This whole it’s safer stuff is baloney. The question isn’t whether they can or can’t. They legally can. It’s whether they should be able to and is it safe?

  • #245664

    EGL Admin
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    @raven 72933 wrote:

    Very well said!!! People in the big SUVs and big trucks are the worse!!

    The worse?

  • #245665

    EGL Admin
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    @tomwaltman 72930 wrote:

    If that is what your government issues, then I suggest you wear it…

    I don’t see black helicopters and worry about the government control like you do.

  • #245742

    Raven
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    bikers.jpg

  • #245743

    Raven
    Member
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    Oh, by the way, this picture is from Allstate Insurance Company

  • #245786

    morgandog
    Member
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    @EGL Admin 72940 wrote:

    Thank you! This whole it’s safer stuff is baloney. The question isn’t whether they can or can’t. They legally can. It’s whether they should be able to and is it safe?

    It’s only your opinion on this one about safety. Show me some facts and change the law or just deal with is as it is legal.
    Baloney is what was for lunch today…good old Oscar and damn it was good! Buuuurrrp!

  • #245787

    morgandog
    Member
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    Doc,
    You are going to have a field day as soon as the news comes out!
    Figure I’d be the first to say something…………………..

  • #245666

    EGL Admin
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    I was driving to the store yesterday afternoon and the intersection of Bradshaw and Elk Grove Blvd was blocked off by police. On the way back I could see a yellow sheet covering a body on the ground. Later I saw one of my friends comment about a friend who died yesterday. Followed that back to the persons page and figured out it was the same accident. His name is Ken Duffy and he went to the same church as us, First Baptist. He worked with teens there. I never met him but in reading the posts by dozens of people he touched many lives and helped a lot of teens find their path in life.

    This morning I saw the link to the accident on Fox40 and police believe he may have ran the stop sign. Have to think maybe he got distracted or something caused him to run the stop sign.

    http://fox40.com/2013/01/19/motorcyclist-dead-after-crash-in-elk-grove/

  • #245667

    EGL Admin
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    @morgandog 72947 wrote:

    It’s only your opinion on this one about safety. Show me some facts and change the law or just deal with is as it is legal.
    Baloney is what was for lunch today…good old Oscar and damn it was good! Buuuurrrp!

    This was from an article in the Patch so obviously it’s something that concerns other people as well, not just me. It’s your life. If you want ride on something that offers you no protection in the case of accident, and ride between moving vehicles, knowing they might not see you and could be distracted, then go for it dude.

    As far as dealing with it, isn’t that what we all do? In case you and Raven forgot this is a duscussion forum. It’s not a club where everyone agrees. People post opinions on a variety of subjects. Some get lots of comments and some get none. Everyone has an equal say. No one is censored unless they cross the line and that has rarely ever happened here.

  • #245788

    morgandog
    Member
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    @EGL Admin 72954 wrote:

    This was from an article in the Patch so obviously it’s something that concerns other people as well, not just me. It’s your life. If you want ride on something that offers you no protection in the case of accident, and ride between moving vehicles, knowing they might not see you and could be distracted, then go for it dude.

    As far as dealing with it, isn’t that what we all do? In case you and Raven forgot this is a duscussion forum. It’s not a club where everyone agrees. People post opinions on a variety of subjects. Some get lots of comments and some get none. Everyone has an equal say. No one is censored unless they cross the line and that has rarely ever happened here.

    I totally am aware that it is a discussion forum and totally respect other rights to opinions even though in this case I dont like yours. You sound like a grumpy old man about this issue and trying to shove your opinions down our throats. The patch doesnt speak for everyone but only a small sector of people. As I said before it is legal and no matter what you think it will continue. You brought up safety reason the fell short IMO. I ride, you don’t, so I understand it In this case better than you. I accept the risk!
    Anytime a rider goes down my heart hurts as he/she is part of a family so strong. Its call motorcycle family. Something you will never understand. I am so sorry to have another rider killed no matter who he is. But. in this case you sound soft about this guy as this guy went to your church and has impacted so many lives. If it was a young kid that hasn’t brought anything to the community or was trouble would your statement been different?
    If you feel you ever have to censor me feel free. I am not anydifferent than you and have strong beliefs and opinions and that is exactly why you built this forum. (you built it and not Obama)
    We are no different than you Doc! But I as you… if you attack something so close to me I will come right back at you!
    And to be clear,I never asked you to agree I only said it was legal so deal with it. That doesnt sound to me as a club and you must agree.
    Settle down Doc, you dont have to be so pissed off about it. It is only a forum and not a club.

  • #245668

    EGL Admin
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    Morgan, if you think I’m pissed you are wrong. You seem more upset than me.

    As far as disagreeing, that’s fine and I welcome when people disagree. You will never hear me complain because someone is challenging my opinions. Question is can you take people disagreeing or do you take your toys and go home? I ask because some people can’t take it. I don’t want someone to quit because they can dish it out but can’t take it. That way I’ll know if I need to take it easy on you. 😉

  • #245789

    morgandog
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    I got some big toys and will need a big truck to take them home, Can I borrow yours? If you feel the need to be tougher on me because you feel the need please do so. I like paying with grumpy old men:) And you are welcome to come back and get the last word as you usually do…..
    Dude…. remember one thing….I wont wait because it want to get there before/faster than you….
    naaahner naaahner naaahnerrrr. lol

  • #245669

    EGL Admin
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    LOL. Maybe!

  • #245744

    Raven
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    Today on my way home from downtown, on 99, a woman in a great big SUV, didn’t bother to look and cut me off to the point I had to break. I guess she didn’t see the CHP officer behind me. Sweet!!! He went around me, pulled in front of me and snagged her!!! Loved it!!!

  • #245790

    morgandog
    Member
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    Like!

  • #245772

    EGdonald
    Participant
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    @raven 72992 wrote:

    Today on my way home from downtown, on 99, a woman in a great big SUV, didn’t bother to look and cut me off to the point I had to break. I guess she didn’t see the CHP officer behind me. Sweet!!! He went around me, pulled in front of me and snagged her!!! Loved it!!!

    Nothing like the feeling of legal vindication 😀

    ride on!

  • #245701

    adiffer
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    @morgandog 72897 wrote:

    Thats a very Liberal point of view that it is someone else fault. That falls under following to close. That would matter even to a person driving a car!

    Oh, come now. Conservatives blame others for all sorts of stuff too. Single mothers are responsible for all sorts of social ills, right? 8)

    I’m with you on avoiding blaming others, though. A little dose of existentialism for everyone would be useful now and then.

  • #245702

    adiffer
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    @curlzz01 72928 wrote:

    The guys that really scare me are the Idiots usually on crotch rockets who are hauling ass down city surface streets where the speed limit is around 35mph… THey are lane splitting then cutting in and out of traffic to get to the light first I suppose… Everytime I get cut off I’m afraid the idiot will go down right in front of me where I won’t have time to stop and run him over and kill him…

    I’ve seen an equivalent with muscle cars zipping into slots on the freeway. It isn’t quite lane sharing, but the slots aren’t big enough to occupy safely AND they tend to spook the cars near them. Instead of falling in front of us, though, they are likely to be able to speed off and not know how many people get killed behind them. Lane sharing motorcyclists aren’t anywhere near as likely to spook a lot of drivers because…. we don’t see them. 8)

  • #245791

    morgandog
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    Just wake up Al? lol

  • #245756

    sea
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    Ha! I just read through some of this thread. Does anyone have hard statistics to the “danger” involved in motorcycle lane splitting from NHTSA? I didn’t look them up. I don’t recall every taking a crash caused by lane splitting, and neither did the other half with his 28 years on CHP. I have no problem with it and try to stay aware to make a little room. Doesn’t bother me in the least.

    If it bothers some of you, write your legislators and try to get the law changed.

  • #245670

    EGL Admin
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    Sea, how many people have you shot or how many times have you discharged your weapon?

    Here is a study from last year. Didn’t have a chance to look over it very thoroughly. Did see that almost 15% of motorcyclists surveyed said they had hit or were hit by a vehicle. 45% said they nearly hit a vehicle. Almost 20% split lanes at speeds greater than 30 mph.

    http://www.ots.ca.gov/Media_and_Research/Press_Room/2012/doc/2012_MC_Lane_Splitting_Survey.pdf

  • #245757

    sea
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    You’re right DocS, my experiences mean nothing. My opinion, however, stays the same.

    I was thinking more along the lines of actual statistics from NHTSA, not a survey, but it really doesn’t matter. If people are opposed to the law allowing this, arm yourself with facts and approach your lawmakers to change it.

  • #245751

    tomwaltman
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    Doc – How many people do you think exceed the speed limit in an automobile? How many do you think have “almost hit another car?”

  • #245745

    Raven
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    @sea 73008 wrote:

    Ha! I just read through some of this thread. Does anyone have hard statistics to the “danger” involved in motorcycle lane splitting from NHTSA? I didn’t look them up. I don’t recall every taking a crash caused by lane splitting, and neither did the other half with his 28 years on CHP. I have no problem with it and try to stay aware to make a little room. Doesn’t bother me in the least.

    If it bothers some of you, write your legislators and try to get the law changed.

    :applause::applause::applause: Thank you SEA!!!!

  • #245703

    adiffer
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    Heh. I was in Vegas for a few days. On my way back down I-15 the traffic slowed to a crawl in the usual places (mountain passes) and the motorcycles in the flow with us all started lane sharing. I thought about this thread and took a moment to arrange a couple of mirrors to point directly at my blind spots and an amazing thing happened. I saw them coming and wasn’t suprised even when they zoomed by. Astounding! 8)

    I can’t keep the mirrors where they were while moving at full speed though… at least not yet. It is very weird to have cars moving in different directions in the same visual field. I tried it, but wasn’t paying enough attention forward. My brain might adapt over time, but I’ll restrict this to when I think lane sharing is mostly likely to occur for now.

    Regarding law changes, though, I’ll opt for ‘No change’ unless I see stats that demonstrate lane sharing is more unsafe relative to the alternatives. I don’t expect perfect safety on the road and I certainly don’t expect my government to provide it.

  • #245768

    Anonymous
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    @EGL Admin 72953 wrote:

    His name is Ken Duffy and he went to the same church as us, First Baptist. He worked with teens there. I never met him but in reading the posts by dozens of people he touched many lives and helped a lot of teens find their path in life.

    http://fox40.com/2013/01/19/motorcyclist-dead-after-crash-in-elk-grove/

    Ken was a great man. I grew up at First Baptist church. he was always actively involved in the Junior high and high school groups. He will be missed…

  • #245773

    EGdonald
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    Not to jump on the wagon of calling out the “admin” :P, but rather to share a little more about lane-splitting:

    In Texas, lane-splitting is NOT allowed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIXa5oZrNGs

    In California, lane-splitting is allowed, but this San Franciscan probably wished he had split to the front.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7D0BTyJBeM
    *side note* funny, only 1 embedded video per post? hmph, whatever :p

    I’m not saying everyone who lane-splits on a motorcycle do it “correctly” or with consideration to others. When I split the lanes, whether highway or up to the front at a red light, I go as slow as possible trying to stay within the 10-15mph above the flow of traffic, but NEVER split at speeds greater than 45-50mph.

    There will always be some folks who share in an activity that do stupid things to make the entire group look bad. :loser:
    And I especially didn’t like the term “crotch rockets”… because what is a “crotch rocket” and why referred to as such? But that’s another discussion.
    I don’t differntiate between which styles of motorcycles split lanes… I see ALL types.
    Just like how I don’t discriminate that folks with Priuses drive slow and don’t punch it. There are a bunch of ding-dongs that do it in SUV’s, luxury, sport, hoopties, etc.

    Anyway – to sum it up.
    There are idiots on the road (drivers, motorcyclists, bicylists, skateboarders, pedestrians, etc):grill:. All we can do to better the situation is to better our own driving skills and on occasion encourage others to do the same.
    :allgood:

  • #245774

    EGdonald
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    Not to suggest that CA or other states may try something along this scale, but back in 2010, French government proposed a ban lane-splitting.

    This is how the French planned their protest…. during rush hour.
    http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2010/03/30march10lanesplitting/

    033010top.jpg

    :funny3:

  • #245726

    itsallinthepits
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    WTH! I just saw that video. How did that accident even happen? The car was obviously not paying attention….I suppose that is the case with more accidents, but wow. I hope the motorcycle driver is okay.

  • #245792

    morgandog
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    @egdonald 73099 wrote:

    Not to jump on the wagon of calling out the “admin” :P, but rather to share a little more about lane-splitting:

    In Texas, lane-splitting is NOT allowed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIXa5oZrNGs

    In California, lane-splitting is allowed, but this San Franciscan probably wished he had split to the front.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7D0BTyJBeM
    *side note* funny, only 1 embedded video per post? hmph, whatever :p

    I’m not saying everyone who lane-splits on a motorcycle do it “correctly” or with consideration to others. When I split the lanes, whether highway or up to the front at a red light, I go as slow as possible trying to stay within the 10-15mph above the flow of traffic, but NEVER split at speeds greater than 45-50mph.

    There will always be some folks who share in an activity that do stupid things to make the entire group look bad. :loser:
    And I especially didn’t like the term “crotch rockets”… because what is a “crotch rocket” and why referred to as such? But that’s another discussion.
    I don’t differntiate between which styles of motorcycles split lanes… I see ALL types.
    Just like how I don’t discriminate that folks with Priuses drive slow and don’t punch it. There are a bunch of ding-dongs that do it in SUV’s, luxury, sport, hoopties, etc.

    Anyway – to sum it up.
    There are idiots on the road (drivers, motorcyclists, bicylists, skateboarders, pedestrians, etc):grill:. All we can do to better the situation is to better our own driving skills and on occasion encourage others to do the same.
    :allgood:

    Awesome! Great job finding this! Probably a old grumpy dude not wanting a M/C to get ahead of him! 😉
    It goes to show you that some people just dont pay attention!

  • #245671

    EGL Admin
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    What I see in those videos is just more reasons not to drive a motorcycle and its worse now with more inattentive drivers. Just look around if you are a passenger in a vehicle and check out all the people either talking or using their phones and you want to be in traffic with that? That’s why I drive a pickup and SUV.

  • #245704

    adiffer
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    Isn’t that a better argument for better enforcement (or new laws) for distracted driving than it is for ending lane sharing?

  • #245672

    EGL Admin
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    It’s an argument for doing whatever it takes to make things safer. I don’t get caught up in thinking that enacting a new law is going to grow the government. It’s another thing for police to look at during their work day. Hundreds of laws and changes are enacted every year. Do we rail against all of those?

  • #245731

    newmom
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    What is the charge for “distracted” driving? And wouldn’t it have to be witnessed by an officer to actually have a driver be charged? I know in the case of my accident I saw the driver of the other car (I was rear ended, and I knew he was going to hit me about 5 seconds before he did because I could see him in my rear view mirror) with one hand on his steering wheel, leaning over and picking something up from the floor on the passenger side of his vehicle. His head wasn’t even above his dash. Given the amount of time it took everyone else to slow down, and me to see him and and say out loud to my kids “Hold on kids”, he had to have been “distracted” for a good 15 seconds. That’s a long time on a 45 MPH street in heavy traffic. He wasn’t charged with anything, and never had to pay a dime. Oh, and he had just gotten his license BACK after losing it.

  • #245705

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 73122 wrote:

    It’s an argument for doing whatever it takes to make things safer. I don’t get caught up in thinking that enacting a new law is going to grow the government. It’s another thing for police to look at during their work day. Hundreds of laws and changes are enacted every year. Do we rail against all of those?

    Hmm… but you don’t actually KNOW that ending lane sharing would make things safer. You THINK you know, but without the stats you don’t actually know. Besides, if you add enough things for the police to look at each day, they eventually won’t be able to enforce them with any consistency… unless you grow the police force. We often add laws and later add people and yes… I rail at this.

    Knowledge isn’t the feeling of knowledge. The feeling that you know something is a lot like a sensory response that happens to point inward at your mind instead of outward at the world. You feel that you know when you notice that you know. You feel an apple in your hand when you get the sensory input from touch and notice it. Very similar.

    Knowledge as a ‘thing’ has to be Justified, True, and Believed. Justification means evidence ranging from solid, statistical support to anecdotal experience. Anecdotal evidence is weakest. There is debate over whether JTB is enough, but most agree that it is minimally necessary.

  • #245706

    adiffer
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    I have no idea how we would define ‘distracted’ driving, let alone enforce it. Rather than writing laws, though, I’d be more inclined to get a car with an auto-pilot that payed attention to the level of my attention to the road. Even crude auto-pilots that sense other cars nearby and apply the brakes or turn the wheel when the calculations suggest high danger would be useful. The crude devices are already available and better ones are coming. As long as people aren’t overly protected from the impact on their auto-insurance their stupid driving decisions have, they will be motivated to get these things installed or buy cars that have them next time.

    Rather than laws requiring police to intervene when we behave stupidly, I’d rather see a ratcheting up of consequences as the costs for preventative measures comes down.

    Does your car have a little black box in it yet? You might already be at risk of facing tough consequences for bad decisions. It’s worth asking that of the people who run into you nowadays. 8)

  • #245673

    EGL Admin
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    Is it safer to drive between two moving vehicles with inches to spare on each side than not? I don’t think you have to see stats to believe driving between two vehicles is not the safest way to do it.

  • #245708

    adiffer
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    If I don’t see the stats I have no choice BUT TO BELIEVE or not. If the stats exist, I have a choice.

    Belief is a dangerous thing. It works wonderfully well much of the time, but occassionally it leads you astray.
    If I have a chance to supplement it with evidence I prefer to do it because some errors of belief are avoidable.
    Beliefs that justify impacts to another person’s liberty should be checked as often as reasonably possible.

  • #245674

    EGL Admin
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    Of course proof is always going to be the best thing, but there is also common sense. When a person rides a motorcycle they assume a lot of risk as part of their enjoyment of riding that drivers of cars don’t have to worry about. I don’t think that when traffic is moving slowly on the freeway that bikers are thinking, “I better drive between these cars because I don’t want to get rear ended.”

  • #245707

    adiffer
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    I know of at least one biker who thinks that. I doubt he was making it up either. He’s been hit by cars numerous times.

    Common sense is an odd duck. I seriously doubt you can define it without getting circular or getting caught in a conceptual mire. What most people think of as common sense is what THEY think is sensible that a number of others don’t find disagreeable. You and I probably have some common ground on what makes sense, but you already know I disagree with some of that you believe to be justified knowledge. The game theory people have a definition for the term, but I doubt you would like it. I’ve decided the term is nonsensical.

    I think you are a bit to willing to rely on the ‘sense’ you believe to be justified and true.
    I think you have a ‘faith’ in yourself and as you know I find faith to be problematic.

  • #245675

    EGL Admin
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    Looks like the city is going to be using funds from a new grant in part for “motorcycle safety enforcement”. I don’t think that necessarily means making it safer for motorcyclists, but enforcing that they obey the laws and drive in a safer manner.
    I was driving back from Auburn yesterday and there was some traffic in the Roseville area but still moving at 65+. Here comes a yahoo on a motorcycle who didn’t think it was fast enough and went between cars traveling at over 65 mph. I wish I was not driving so I could have taken a video.

  • #245793

    morgandog
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    @EGL Admin 73278 wrote:

    Looks like the city is going to be using funds from a new grant in part for “motorcycle safety enforcement”. I don’t think that necessarily means making it safer for motorcyclists, but enforcing that they obey the laws and drive in a safer manner.
    I was driving back from Auburn yesterday and there was some traffic in the Roseville area but still moving at 65+. Here comes a yahoo on a motorcycle who didn’t think it was fast enough and went between cars traveling at over 65 mph. I wish I was not driving so I could have taken a video.

    :beatdead:

  • #245709

    adiffer
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    Why not just set up a video rig on your dash to run hands-free? If nothing interesting happens during a drive, just dump the video file.

    I suspect there is some value in having a record of an unfortunate event even if it doesn’t happen to you. 8)

  • #245676

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 73290 wrote:

    Why not just set up a video rig on your dash to run hands-free? If nothing interesting happens during a drive, just dump the video file.

    I suspect there is some value in having a record of an unfortunate event even if it doesn’t happen to you. 8)

    Would you use a phone for that or a video camera? That’s an idea. I see lots of idiots every day driving.

  • #245677

    EGL Admin
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    @morgandog 73287 wrote:

    :beatdead:

    Don’t beat yourself up like that Morgan. 😉

  • #245710

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 73296 wrote:

    Would you use a phone for that or a video camera? That’s an idea. I see lots of idiots every day driving.

    Whatever you’ve got, I suppose. A dash mounted smart phone should be good enough. If you really get into it you get a few cheap cameras with video modes and point them in every direction out the windows, hook them to the phone via blue tooth and start them all from one console. 8)

    I know there are people experimenting with these things and writing apps to handle the annoying chores. Some of them want to catch accidents on camera and avoid impacts to their own insurance. Some want to report on what the police are doing. It doesn’t matter much, though. The assets are mostly already in your hands I’ll bet and if you can make the case that lane sharing really is dangerous (more people being stupid than bikers currently WANT to believe) then you might help save lives in the future.

    If you do catch idiot bikers, I would suggest EGL sponsor a YouTube channel and you post it there.
    We could all contribute our material regarding pitbulls, lunch ladies, and exposed underwear worn my WalMart shoppers. 8)
    EGL’s ‘Things that SHOULD NOT BE channel’. 8)

  • #245769

    Anonymous
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    @adiffer 73298 wrote:

    Whatever you’ve got, I suppose. A dash mounted smart phone should be good enough. If you really get into it you get a few cheap cameras with video modes and point them in every direction out the windows, hook them to the phone via blue tooth and start them all from one console. 8)

    I know there are people experimenting with these things and writing apps to handle the annoying chores. Some of them want to catch accidents on camera and avoid impacts to their own insurance. Some want to report on what the police are doing. It doesn’t matter much, though. The assets are mostly already in your hands I’ll bet and if you can make the case that lane sharing really is dangerous (more people being stupid than bikers currently WANT to believe) then you might help save lives in the future.

    If you do catch idiot bikers, I would suggest EGL sponsor a YouTube channel and you post it there.
    We could all contribute our material regarding pitbulls, lunch ladies, and exposed underwear worn my WalMart shoppers. 8)
    EGL’s ‘Things that SHOULD NOT BE channel’. 8)

    I just got myself a new Go Pro camera. Thats would work perfectly for want you are suggesting

  • #245678

    EGL Admin
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    Dang looks like I’m not the only one discussing lane splitting. The CHP is too. California is the only state where it’s legal. CHP is saying don’t lane split over 30 mph and the rider quoted in the story thought that was ridiculous.

    Lane splitting

    CHP posts first-ever guidelines for legal lane-splitting
    By Mallory Hoff
    February 07, 2013 11:02 PM PST
    Share on facebook Share on twitter

    SACRAMENTO, Calif. (KCRA) –
    The California Highway Patrol has posted its first-ever guidelines for legal lane-splitting.

    Lane-splitting is a common practice for motorcyclists maneuvering between slower-moving cars.

    California is the only state where lane-splitting is legal.

    Longtime motorcyclist Kelly Hokanson said lane-splitting, when done safely, gets him where he needs to go.

    “The least amount I have to linger in traffic, the less danger it is for both of us,” Hokanson said Thursday.

    But the maneuver makes some drivers nervous.

    “We were driving toward Sacramento and this guy comes zooming past at like, 90 mph,” driver John Milburn said.

    And now for the first time, the CHP has released guidelines for legal lane-splitting.

    “For us, having these guidelines — it enhances the public safety,” Adrian Quintero, of the CHP.

    The guidelines state motorcyclists can ride between two cars if there is room.

    However, they shouldn’t travel more than 10 mph faster than those they’re passing.

    The rules say lane-splitting should not take place in traffic going 30 mph or faster.

    “That’s ridiculous,” Hokanson said. “That’s going to cause massive problems for commute times and everything else. The freeways are congested enough.”

    In addition to an increase of motorcyclists on the roads, the CHP has also seen an increase in motorcycle crashes in recent years.

    But it will continue to be the only state where lane-splitting is legal.

    “We’ve looked at all the statistics, we’ve looked at the probability of them being rear-ended,” Quintero said. “It’s getting them through roads and it’s getting them to their destination in a safe manner.”

    But Hokanson maintains the guidelines aren’t necessary.

    “They just think we are blasting through traffic without thinking about it — and we are not,” Hokanson said. “We’re trying to get somewhere, but we see you. We see you putting on your lipstick, we see you talking on your cellphone, we see you not paying attention. And that’s why we’re still alive.”

  • #245711

    adiffer
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    Let the statistics speak. Where are they published?

  • #245770

    Anonymous
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    @EGL Admin 73624 wrote:

    And now for the first time, the CHP has released guidelines for legal lane-splitting.

    “For us, having these guidelines — it enhances the public safety,” Adrian Quintero, of the CHP.

    The guidelines state motorcyclists can ride between two cars if there is room.

    However, they shouldn’t travel more than 10 mph faster than those they’re passing.

    The rules say lane-splitting should not take place in traffic going 30 mph or faster.

    For the first time? When I took my motorcycle safety class (10 years ago) to get my “M” License they told me these same rules… I don’t think this is new….

  • #245794

    morgandog
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    Two comments,

    1,” “We were driving toward Sacramento and this guy comes zooming past at like, 90 mph,” driver John Milburn said.” I am guessing he had Radar/Vascar to clock his speed?

    2, Like a CHP officer in a car is going to enforce this? Yeah right! How? Red lights and siren to get that BIG ass pick up truck out of the way to catch and enforce the that mean law breaking motorcyclist that will get there before you?

    bla bla bla…..Just sayin! :stir:

  • #245679

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 73626 wrote:

    Let the statistics speak. Where are they published?

    You’ll have to ask the CHP. They basically said lane splitting is okay and that it may avoid rear end collisions. I think it’s funny that during this discussion a few people made it sound like it was just me that was against it or worried about it. The initial post came from an article in the Patch and then now here is the CHP releasing a statement on it. Obviously it must have been a concern to a lot of people for them to release a statement on it. It’s also interesting that it’s not legal in any other states. In some states I don’t think you can even ride side by side in the same lane with another bike. I used to golf with a couple of guys who were bikers and members of Harley Davidson Club in Sacramento. Most of their club was from Elk Grove then when the store closed here I think they merged with Sacramento. I don’t recall which state, possibly Arizona, where they were riding and the cops pulled some of their club members over for sharing a lane.

  • #245680

    EGL Admin
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    @morgandog 73630 wrote:

    Two comments,

    1,” “We were driving toward Sacramento and this guy comes zooming past at like, 90 mph,” driver John Milburn said.” I am guessing he had Radar/Vascar to clock his speed?

    2, Like a CHP officer in a car is going to enforce this? Yeah right! How? Red lights and siren to get that BIG ass pick up truck out of the way to catch and enforce the that mean law breaking motorcyclist that will get there before you?

    bla bla bla…..Just sayin! :stir:

    CHP has bikes too. So you’re advocating not stopping if they see you because they can’t catch you in a car? Perfect. That sure adds to the biker stereotype and dispels any talk about selfishness.

  • #245712

    adiffer
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    Yah, but I was asking YOU because of the implied suggestion that the law should change. I don’t mind if you feel the practice is safe or unsafe as that is your opinion. If you show stats, though, your opinion can turn into a more persuasive argument. It isn’t CHP’s place to tell us we should be protecting ourselves by changing the law, but it is quite within YOUR realm to do so. Mine too.

    I know there are States that outlaw lane sharing between bikes. Personally, I think that is silly. I’m MUCH more likely to notice bikers when they ride near each other. However, I’ll bow to the stats on that again… if anyone cares to dig them up.

  • #245752

    tomwaltman
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    I am amazed that the CHP was so concerned about Doc’s issues that they published guidelines for this! What a wonderful agency. Oh, you mean that the draft of this was what pushed the Patch to publish their piece? And the release was planned before our thread started? Crazy talk. This is ALL about Doc’s concerns. 😉

  • #245681

    EGL Admin
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    Here all this time I thought I was the reason the CHP addressed it!

    Al, I don’t know it there are statistics on it. I don’t have to put my head in the oven to know it’s hot and will burn.

  • #245795

    morgandog
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    And the chance of a CHP bike rider being in the right place would be what?

    Like I said before, we are past you faster than you can blink an eye! And yes, Haul ass and get ahead of you so I can be first!
    Twist it however you want! Talk about it as much as you want! Read the CHP suggestions as mush as you want! Dont answer my direct questions to you! Get over yourself and move on! It’s not against the law! Until it is, I will split lanes and beat your BIG ass truck to the next light and beat you to the food line at the buffet!
    If you dont like it…do something about it! Try to make it a law if it bothers you so much. :beatdead:
    I love that fact that it is over 1800 views 130 post to this thread and it is still legal!:funny3::funny3:

  • #245682

    EGL Admin
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    What questions did I not answer? Your responses are emoticons and nonsense. I know this is really hard for you to comprehend, but this is a discussion forum. It’s not about trying to change laws. As I said before, I got this from the Patch and now the CHP comes out with this. You’re the one that seems to bothered the most by this and has complained because I was being a big meanie to you and here you are telling me to get over myself. Don’t worry I don’t spend any extra time thinking about this stuff. It’s a discussion forum. We discuss things. I’ll keep in mind in the future that you are sensitive so I’ll ease up on you.

    As one of the administrators here I love the fact this thread has 130 posts and 1800 views as well. It’s good for the website. So thank you for participating.

  • #245796

    morgandog
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    One example, going back early on this thread I asked if by your opinion that if Motors are unsafe should Cops not ride them either? I use the example that Some Bikers ride way more miles than a motor cop and no answer from you but glazed over the question and didnt answer just like you do to many folks here when you are asked pointed questions. another example, I asked if a car wanted to pass you on the right at an intersection would you move over if you had room too? Answer was ” I always move over for emergency vehicles”! What part of that question did you not comprehend? I never mentioned emergency vehicles.
    Feel free to go back to about post 50 forward and read some of the posts again and your answers. Although I am sure you wont and have some kind of come back as it is a “forum and not a club” we dont have to agree bla bla bla.

    Its funny when someone doesnt agree with your line of thinking on this “forum” or shall I call it “the admin club” you come back and say stuff like “I know its hard for you to comprehend” And “you need to know its not a club its a forum” or “are you going to take your toys and leave the sand box” I’ll keep in mind in the future that you are sensitive so I’ll ease up on you. etc etc etc.
    Do you know the meaning of passive aggressive. Go look in the mirror and you will have the definition.

  • #245683

    EGL Admin
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    I’ll definitely go back and read the posts. I haven’t read every line of every post. I am usually reading it on my phone and could miss things. As far as not answering pointed questions I’m just going to straight up say you don’t know what you are talking about. I don’t know if you were on EGO when I was there and you are obviously not familiar withy posts. I don’t back down from anyone or any discussion and I don’t whine about people being mean. You have as much of a voice here as myself or anyone. If you can’t handle it that’s your problem. From the start you’ve tried to make it about me, as if I’m the only one who thinks it should be illegal. Others have said they agree. Most have agreed with you. That’s fine. No one is forcing you to respond or read the comments.

    Let me answer your one question now. If a car wants to pass me on the right,why would I move over? Don’t they have their own lane?or are you talking about a car using the shoulder or bike lane? In those cases, no I don’t pull over. They can’t wait in line either?

  • #245684

    EGL Admin
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    Ok so I answered the question above about pulling over. A common theme with you seems to impatience. You can’t wait in traffic so you split lanes. You can’t wait in a car and want to pass on the right.

    This comment I think is telling and you unwittingly prove my point.

    Remember most every time we are past you before you know we are even there.

    Whether its drivers not paying attention or riders sneaking up on cars, you acknowledge that you are surprising riders which makes it more dangerous for you and other.

    Read post 62 by omgnate who said it startles her when a biker appears next to get SUV.

    Can’t compare cops to others. Cops are allowed to do things others can’t.

    Read your comments in post 85, “you sound like a grumpy old man…” Did I say anything negative about you personally? No I didn’t.
    You also said many times “it’s legal, deal with it.” When I posted other links or stories, your response was an emoticon or another pithy comment. Yet I’m being passive aggressive and making you feel unwelcome? You need to go back and read your comments again before throwing stones in your glass house. I have zero problem with any of comments. I’m quite capable of defending my opinions without having to resort to name calling. But if you start it, don’t cry about feeling unwelcome or being picked on. You’re one of those that probably teases dogs through the fence then will complain if they jump out and bite you.

    If you have any other questions, let me know. I’ll be happy answer.

  • #245797

    morgandog
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    Where did I say I felt unwelcome? There you go again reading into something that’s not there! If you feel I am un-patient that cool.From what I read about you in this post with some of your responses and not wanting to give an inch to help a fellow driver be on their way makes you sound like its all about you on the road. The common thread with you is that you must always prove a point and be right.
    Go back to post #48….. Loud farts scare her!
    Se, I can piss just as far as you dude! I am now rolling over in submission! NOT!

  • #245685

    EGL Admin
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    Why should a driver have to pull over to let another car pass? Why not wait in line? I don’t have to share a lane with a car. It’s illegal to pass on the right if there is no lane. Why be in such a hurry that you can’t wait in line in traffic like others?

    On the other thread about gun control you mentioned it was the doc club and if people didn’t agree then I said they sucked. I’ve never said that about anyone or implied it. People have different opinions, I understand that. Anytime someone offers an opinion there is a chance someone else will offer theirs which may or may not agree. I’ve never tried to stop anyone from posting. It’s not a club. I am friends in real life with some people. When people disagree with you, you don’t handle it well as witnessed by your comments here. Everything is personal with you. I sound like an old man, deal with it etc. then you complain about my behavior.

  • #245764

    omgnate
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    Well, I was teasing about loud farts!…But, I am dead serious about a bike suddenly appearing next to me out of no where! Gives me a start for sure…And yes they are quickly gone, but I think, what if I had shifted in my lane just as they were approaching my car?! It’s a scary thought..

  • #245775

    EGdonald
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    @omgnate 73651 wrote:

    … but I think, what if I had shifted in my lane just as they were approaching my car?! It’s a scary thought..

    It’s just as scary when an unsuspecting driver would change lanes without checking all the blind spots or abrupt lane changes.

    I’ll agree, because of the physical size of motorcycles they are more difficult to see our notice, but we all can’t keep within our shells of safety ask the time, that would make enjoying life a little boring.
    … and not to imply that riding is the only way to enjoy life, or taking risks is how every one enjoys life.
    People go out ahead ski, there’s inherent dangers there too(avalanche, trees, beginners, etc.). Or traveling the world (scamming, mugging, illness/food poison, etc).
    Point is, people do it, and so long as you are level headed about doing it, they are well worth the risk.

  • #245765

    omgnate
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    I’m good EGdonald…Those are just the thoughts that go on in my head when a bike suddenly appears and disappears…I’m an excellent driver, no accidents that I have caused in almost 50 years of driving, and not one traffic ticket either…I don’t come from a State where lane splitting is legal, so of course when I first encountered the practice, it was a bit of a shock…I drive a big SUV, when they pass me, I can touch them if I reach out my window..LOL

  • #245686

    EGL Admin
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    There is no doubt that ALL drivers can do better, cars and bikers. Motorcycle riders obviously have to assume more risk. Contrary to what Morgan thinks, it has nothing to do with me. I’m just more vocal about it. I check my mirrors all the time because I drive defensively and in case something happens in front me of so I know if I need to pull right or left in the event of an accident or something ahead of me. I don’t want the responsibility of having to move over to one side of the lane so a biker can try and squeeze through and make sure my mirrors don’t hit them and at the same time there are cars on either side of me so I don’t want to hit them or have the biker swerve to avoid them and hit me. Just because something is not illegal doesn’t mean it’s smart or safe. There are a lot of variables involved. It’s MY opinion that its a bad idea and unsafe. Being courteous extends to everyone. Trying to squeeze past someone on the right or between cars is not courteous.

  • #245713

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 73635 wrote:

    Al, I don’t know it there are statistics on it. I don’t have to put my head in the oven to know it’s hot and will burn.

    Funny you should use that analogy. People stick their hands in ovens all the time and manage to avoid getting burned. Sometimes they do, though, so maybe we should pass a law requiring oven manufacturers to insert locks that prevent the oven from opening until it has cooled off enough so you don’t get burnt.

    Seriously dude… slow down and read things. The CHP referred to their statistics as what was guiding them. That suggests the stats exist. Surely they would put them up where we can see them. If you care about driver safety more than pounding your keyboard, you’d be surfacing them to back your position. Only someone in love with their opinion more that the truth of it would so incurious.

  • #245687

    EGL Admin
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    Al, then maybe you should find them. It’s not part of my job description to try and find something to soothe your curiosity. I posted the link. I also noted that according to the CHP that they felt the statistics showed or at least they implied that lane splitting may prevent some rear end collisions. I have no idea how that could be proven. It’s common sense though because if you’re not in between cars you can’t be rearended. There will not be any statistics that say its not dangerous because even their guidelines suggest it can be. You don’t need statistics to tell you that riding between two moving vehicles can be dangerous. I know in your world of gridlock it’s necessary for you to do anything. But that’s really your problem to deal with. I think you’re confused as to the purpose of this website. I know you think we should be using it to somehow change the world but that’s not what it’s about. It’s providing a place where people can offer their opinions. I don’t have the time to do what you think should be done. Maybe others do. I have a job, 2 kids, a wife and we take care of our moms. Google is your friend. The time you wasted chastising me for not looking could be better spent looking yourself. I posted a link to the CHP report that essentially defends lane splitting and I acknowledged they said it was okay. If I only cared about my opinion why would I do that? Look at the poll. Most think its okay. Safety is subjective though. If there were stats that showed it wasn’t safe, that wouldn’t change everyone’s mind. You really have to be a moron to think that riding between two vehicles, likely with unaware drivers is safe. Bike riders on this thread have used inattentive and unaware drivers as a reason for lane splitting to avoid rear end collisions. That same reasoning can be applied to the dangers of lane splitting. They are just proving my point that it is dangerous.

  • #245753

    tomwaltman
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    Well, this thread may have effectively killed any interest in this site. THAT, unfortunately is also common sense.

  • #245714

    adiffer
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    @EGL Admin 73661 wrote:

    Al, then maybe you should find them. It’s not part of my job description to try and find something to soothe your curiosity. I posted the link.

    No. I’m not trying to beat you up or get you to do my job either. The default situation right now is that lane sharing is legal, so I don’t have to do anything. If you feel it is unsafe, I am willing to listen to you as I would anyone else. That much I owe you as a member of the community. However, the burden of ‘proof’ lies with you because it is you who would change something. I respect that you FEEL that it is unsafe and I respect that you don’t have time in the day to do everything you can imagine doing, but I know you spend a great deal of time helping to make this community (EGL in particular) an interesting and useful place. You wouldn’t have posted the link to the Patch article otherwise. What I’m pointing out is that the next step beyond mindless link propagation is supporting evidence.

    You post a LOT of content and are in an excellent position to persuade people or set the stage for debates that do. I know you WANT to as well at least on certain subjects. This is obvious from your political posts. I applaud that wholeheartedly. I’m pointing at the next step in front of you so you can step up onto it instead of tripping over it.

    Quote:
    I also noted that according to the CHP that they felt the statistics showed or at least they implied that lane splitting may prevent some rear end collisions. I have no idea how that could be proven. It’s common sense though because if you’re not in between cars you can’t be rearended. There will not be any statistics that say its not dangerous because even their guidelines suggest it can be.

    For these kinds of persuasive arguments, it is more about support than proof. If you want people to take a certain action, you first work on getting them to see that your explanation of events (your narrative) is plausible. When you argue that it is ‘common sense’ you are simply asserting it is plausible.

    Quote:
    You don’t need statistics to tell you that riding between two moving vehicles can be dangerous.

    Oh? Really? In an absolute sense you are right of course. The safest place to be when you are riding is somewhere else. If there are no cars around you, that is about the safest you can be, though I suppose getting off the bike is even safer. Riding at all is dangerous. The issue isn’t with the absolute measure, though. It is with the relative measure. Is it safer to lane share or is it less safe? What guidelines for lane sharing produce the minimum risk to rider and driver? If you think you don’t need statistics for that, you are confused. I suspect you are confusing absolute risk with relative risk.

    Quote:
    I know in your world of gridlock it’s necessary for you to do anything. But that’s really your problem to deal with. I think you’re confused as to the purpose of this website. I know you think we should be using it to somehow change the world but that’s not what it’s about. It’s providing a place where people can offer their opinions.

    That’s NOT what some of your people are doing including me and I’m your second largest poster of ‘opinion’. That’s not even what you are doing during poltical seasons.

    Quote:
    I don’t have the time to do what you think should be done. Maybe others do. I have a job, 2 kids, a wife and we take care of our moms. Google is your friend. The time you wasted chastising me for not looking could be better spent looking yourself.

    I’m not trying to rope you into doing my work. I know how to do it well. When I can’t quite think of a good way to search I’ll come here and other places and ask for tips. People are usually quite willing to give them too and I’m appreciative. Tom tipped me off to Hayek. Docl tipped me off to a way of thinking about obiesity. PP tipped me off to MANY political ideas. A&E tipped me off to a frame of mind I struggle to understand. It has all been very useful, but THAT is how I approach the work of learning.

    If you don’t want to take that next step, I’ll quit poking at you, but I will point out that you are in an excellent position to take it. Some of your people here would benefit and YOU would have made that possible. I would never suggest that you spend more time than you are already spending here, though… and that is a lot. Pluck up the courage and try to change the world. You DO have the time for that.

    Quote:
    I posted a link to the CHP report that essentially defends lane splitting and I acknowledged they said it was okay. If I only cared about my opinion why would I do that? Look at the poll. Most think its okay. Safety is subjective though. If there were stats that showed it wasn’t safe, that wouldn’t change everyone’s mind. You really have to be a moron to think that riding between two vehicles, likely with unaware drivers is safe. Bike riders on this thread have used inattentive and unaware drivers as a reason for lane splitting to avoid rear end collisions. That same reasoning can be applied to the dangers of lane splitting. They are just proving my point that it is dangerous.

    They are proving nothing. They are supporting their argument as you try to do for yours by pointing out that they are possible morons. IF you want to offer better support, your next step involves statistics. If you take that step, they will have a simple choice. Either they follow you there or they look like fools in love with their opinions. You might succeed or fail, but along they way you WILL learn and make the world a better place.

  • #245688

    EGL Admin
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    Will statistics really change anyone’s mind though? I don’t think so. It won’t be absolute or definitive.

  • #245689

    EGL Admin
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    One more thing Al, I’m not trying to change existing laws. I’m commenting on it and giving my opinion. It’s not a prerequisite to have to plan on changing something to comment on it. I know you feel it is. It’s possible that by simply bringing this to light that it may increase awareness or motivate someone to work to change it.

  • #245715

    adiffer
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    Statistics have changed my mind more than once. There is no such thing as absolute proof. Evidenciary support is enough. Evidence trumps.

    I do NOT feel that it is a prerequisite to have a plan before commenting. It’s just that most people I know who offer up comments on safety related issues are usually after more than simply stating their opinion. If I offer my opinion on whether or not it is safe for a kid to walk to school, I’m usually hoping that other parents will do what they can to protect their kids. I don’t need to hear myself blather (more than I already do) and don’t care to share opinions for the sake of sharing them. Who cares what I think unless it is relevant to them? Those who do risk becoming sycophants. Ugh.

    You DO try to persuade people. I’ve seen you do it. You made a noticeable effort before the election regarding single issue voters and how we should pay attention to the broader set of problems. Single issue voting on an issue that was incredibly unlikely to change (legality of abortion for example) led one to do harm because one could be emotionally manipulated. That was not just your opinion. You tried to persuade people you were right and that they should consider changing.

    It’s possible that by simply bringing this to light that it may increase awareness or motivate someone to work to change it.

    See? That is your persuasion attempt. Maybe you don’t see it as it is rather passive and weak, but it is still what it is. You don’t present ALL possible things that might motivate someone to change the world, therefore you are attempting to change the world. I applaud and ask you to consider making a more direct effort. These online communities have a lot of potential for good. Put it to work.

  • #245690

    EGL Admin
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    LOL, dammit Al, you caught me! 😉

    Whenever I give my opinion on something I try to provide reasons for my opinion. I don’t just say, “this sucks”. I do like to challenge people on their opinions and try to get them to think about why they believe what they do. I know that others challenging me have made me go back and rethink things on some subjects. To be honest on this particular discussion, the idea that lane splitting is done in part to keep from getting rear ended is not something I had thought about. I had it heard it before but it was mainly pertaining to city traffic stop lights and not freeway driving. It may be a factor, but I still believe it’s also about not wanting to wait in traffic. It’s the same reason people pass on the right on a two lane road when the car in front of them is making a left turn. They don’t want to wait a few more seconds, so they pass on the right.

    Statistics have changed my mind more than once. There is no such thing as absolute proof. Evidenciary support is enough. Evidence trumps.

    It depends on the discussion and the evidence. In this particular case, I don’t think the motorcycle riders are not going to change their minds. In 49 states it is illegal. I think there is a reason for it. Motorcyclists also fought the helmet laws too. If the state and the taxpayers didn’t have to clean up after them, then it wouldn’t matter, but you know if a biker is in an accident and is severely injured they aren’t picking up the tab.

  • #245798

    morgandog
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  • #245691

    EGL Admin
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    If the maximum speed is 30 to lane split then I’m okay with that. That is “safer” than just 10 mph above speed of traffic which could mean anything. It’s a compromise. As I said before the fact that the CHP officially addressed it means others must have complained or contacted them. Also cancels out Al’s argument that I need to find stats or do anything more than give my opinion because the CHP must have their own numbers and they looked into it.

  • #245716

    adiffer
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    Heh. Now you are the trusting soul again. Earlier you noted that 49 of the 50 States do it different from us and they probably have good reasons. Which is it with you? 8)

    A limit of 10 mph above speed of traffic isn’t unreasonable. If traffic is doing about 45 in a 55 zone, that limit says the bikes can go up to but not over 55 as they squeeze by us. The 30mph limits says they shouldn’t, but a biker zipping between us at 65 is breaking both parts of the guideline and possibly vulnerable to a reckless driving charge.

    Besides, you don’t have to have stats BEFORE you state your opinion. Read back at the very beginning of this thread and you’ll see that I argued for stats in support of any opinion to change the law. I’m content with supporting evidence arriving AFTER the intial argument. I will do my duty to the community and pay attention when they do arrive.

    I can think of two reasonable narratives for why 49 of 50 States make this illegal. The first is that it is unsafe, supported by statistical evidence and our elected officials are doing their duty to protect the public as much as they reasonably can. The second is that a number of people feel that it is unsafe, support their argument with some statistics and a lot of anecdotal evidence, and they work hard to lobby for the changes THEY feel protect the public as much as can reasonably be done. The elected official behaves in a saintly way in the first case and goes with the flow of supposed saints in the second case. Reality might be a mix of both narratives.

    If enough States outlaw the practice, it becomes easier for advocates in other States to push their argument because they treat the actions of others as further evidence… even though it isn’t. This is about hopping on bandwagons and while it ‘explains’ what happens, it doesn’t support what happens. I suspect most of the 49 other States adopted their laws mostly by jumping on the bandwagon, but the early adopters would have used one or both of the narratives.

  • #245692

    EGL Admin
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    I think a lot of it is just common sense. As in trying to squeeze between two moving vehicles with in some cases inches on each side. I’d guess its possible that many of the other 49 states didn’t outlaw it at first but were forced to because it became an issue they had to address because someone probably said “the law doesn’t say you CAN’T do it….”

    My preference would be no lane splitting but that would require me to quit my job and abandon my family to meet your criteria for having an opinion on it. Of course I’m being facetious. Lets just be clear about one thing Al so we don’t have this dance again. I don’t believe anyone has to take action in order to give their opinion. It’s not a requirement for participation in this website. It’s your personal criteria and that’s fine. If someone says “I think this is wrong….” They are not obligated to pursue it any farther than offering their opinion. If they choose to work to see there is change that is great. If someone wants to use this website as a starting point that’s fine too. From the start I’ve stated it is my opinion it is unsafe to lane split for bikers and other drivers who may react to almost hitting them.

  • #245717

    adiffer
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    Hah! Now you are being funny again. If you quit your job and work on this full time, you are a clueless zealot. Some do it, but you have a duty to your family so I hope you don’t. You DO have time to work it, though. The time you spend here is not tiny and you can do both services at the same time.

    I’m not particularly interested in exactly what you work on or even if you do. Whether you try to change the world or not is your business and not mine. That applies to everyone here. You DO seem to care about a lot of things, though, so I’m trying to be helpful. Yes… I know it is annoying, but there is a reason for it. It is MY opinion that even tiny contributions to causes can add up to produce useful change and I’m not alone in this. I used to sit on the Board of a 501(c)3 and worked the Chairman role for a year. I KNOW that even tiny efforts from volunteers can produce large impacts if the very few who put in lots of time focus on creating coherency between the minor contributors. I’ve seen it. Wikipedia is the example that is large enough to demostrate this perfectly. The VAST majority of their content comes from people who only ever edit a page once. Tiny contributions of punctuation fixes, supporting evidence sentences and the occasional paragraph ARE what most of us read when we look at one of their wiki pages. The zealots work to provide structure for those contributions and do it well enough to produce something that no for-profit publisher could have afforded to have written.

    David Brin explains this better than I do in his little article on proxy activism. I’ll let his words finish what I’m trying to do here and wrap up by pointing out that my time working hard for a non-profit saw the other side of Brin’s explanation. Every dollar that dribbled in had a magnified impact upon us. Not only did we have a bit of money to use (besides what we pulled from our own wallets) we had legitimacy. People supported us. THAT has a profound impact on volunteers. Everyone here can be an activist no matter how much time they have available to do it because they can do it by proxy and magnify their impact by talking about it here.

    Share your opinion AND what you’ve done for the community… if you dare.

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