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Proposed E-Tran Changes

This topic contains 235 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  BicylingGuy 4 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #175650

    Bainc
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    Are any of you E-Tran riders (Gearshark) aware of the proposed changes to the E-Tran commuter routes beginning in September with the opening of Light Rail to CRC? Looks like all commuter routes will terminate at CRC or Franklin Blvd/CRC Blvd. It’s on the agenda this week for the city council to discuss. I ride E-tran from time to time and I can tell you I’ll be less likely to ride because it’s going to take forever. To wait for the bus, ride through town, then get off at CRC, wait again for the next Light Rail car, and then ride through 10 south Sac stops before getting downtown. No thanks. Too slow. It also looks like Laguna West will have no commuter service so I suspect most of the current riders of the 52/53 that work downtown will now be driving. Gearshark, I know you live in Laguna West and ride the 52. Any chance you’ll drive to Franklin/Laguna and catch a bus heading north to Franklin/CRC Blvd and transfer to Light Rail?

    http://www.elkgrovecity.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_109585/File/cityclerk/citycouncil/2015/attachments/02-25-15_10.1.pdf

  • #276566

    EGL Admin
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    Isn’t that the future of mass transit and light rail? Funnel people to light rail stops?

  • #276725

    Bainc
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    No, the future is to have light rail close enough to make a quick drive, bike, or walk to the station. If Light Rail was at Laguna Blvd and Big Horn I think it’s a different story. But most like myself that want to take public transit will just drop e-tran and drive directly to the light rail stations. Or once I’m on 99 I’ll just keep going downtown.

  • #276678

    gearshark23
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    ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!!!!!! So that stupid survey didn’t mean anything. Guess I’ll be carpooling.

  • #276726

    Bainc
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    Nothing is final yet. They are only discussing and directing staff but the staff report in my OP shows all routes going to Light Rail. It will save the city money but I fear it will send many current bus riders into their cars further clogging our freeways. You and I are just two examples…

  • #276679

    gearshark23
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    This would be the most dumbest thing if they went ahead with this.

    The buses that come downtown go places where light rail does not go.

    I wouldn’t drive nor take a bus to the new light rail station.

    *I’m still reading the document.*

  • #276567

    EGL Admin
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    @bainc 106167 wrote:

    No, the future is to have light rail close enough to make a quick drive, bike, or walk to the station. If Light Rail was at Laguna Blvd and Big Horn I think it’s a different story. But most like myself that want to take public transit will just drop e-tran and drive directly to the light rail stations. Or once I’m on 99 I’ll just keep going downtown.

    My point is that there won’t be busses going downtown. They want people to take light rail, so they will funnel people to the light rail station. That makes sense. It sucks for people like Gerarshark and many others, but that’s the idea behind mass transit and light rail. I think that’s what the city should be doing. It’s one of those be careful what you wish for things. People are upset that the city hasn’t done anything for light rail, and pro-transit people are wondering what the city will do once light rail opens at CRC. They can run more routes if they just go to the light rail stop and back.

    Or once I’m on 99 I’ll just keep going downtown.

    It’s going to be faster in most cases anyway to drive your own car. It’s not really meant to get you there faster. It’s going to save you money on parking, gas, wear and tear on your car. It’s a trade off. In exchange for that, it may take you the same amount of time or longer.

    I assume the city is subsidizing the public transit and that it doesn’t pay for itself? If that is the case then cutting costs and just going to the light rail stops is a good idea.

  • #276727

    Bainc
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    @EGL Admin 106171 wrote:

    It’s going to be faster in most cases anyway to drive your own car. It’s not really meant to get you there faster. It’s going to save you money on parking, gas, wear and tear on your car. It’s a trade off. In exchange for that, it may take you the same amount of time or longer.

    I assume the city is subsidizing the public transit and that it doesn’t pay for itself? If that is the case then cutting costs and just going to the light rail stops is a good idea.

    I totally understand the trade off between getting there the fastest way possible and taking public transit. I calculate it all the time and everybody’s calculation is different. I just think the trade off for many, such as Gearshark, is now worse than before. I do like the idea of saving transit funds and being able to operate more routes or with higher frequency to/from light rail. I’m not saying it’s a horrible idea but I have concerns and have heard the same thing from numerous e-tran riders.

  • #276674

    wildoates
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    That’s why I’d rather drive.

    Oslo’s got a combination of buses, trains, and subway that gets you about fairly well, although it’s expensive. England is the same, but it’s really expensive. Parking is a bitch in downtown Oslo–like most largish cities–so oftentimes it’s more convenient to just take public transportation. When I was there for Christmas, instead of driving, we hopped on the train in their suburb and were Downtown in fifteen minutes. My son said he couldn’t have made it in the car any faster, so I was good with that. The airport train is hugely convenient, going from Oslo Sentralstasion directly into the terminal in about 25 minutes. I wish we could do that with SFO or even our own airport.

    I once checked to see about taking E-tran to work, but it would take nearly an hour and a half to make the connections at certain times of day. No way am I doing that every day if I don’t have to. I’d rather ride my bike those, what? Five, six miles from Hampton Oaks to LCHS?

  • #276680

    gearshark23
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    I would pay more a month for my bus pass if need be to not have to take a bus to CRC then get on light rail. Way too time consuming. If council does move forward myself and alot of others will be emailing, and making phone calls to them as they have stated to do in the memo.

    They need to look into:

    -People that drive over to CRC to take the light rail instead of taking the bus. (Most people would probably do that instead of waiting for the bus) – 1) Will have to pay to park at CRC I believe it’s $2 a day for a parking pass. 2) You already have students going there so times that by 2. 3) Then you have Valley High School and Monterey Trail which brings more traffic on Cosumnes. 4) Then adding that I-5 exit will create more traffic because people will be coming down to get from/or go to I-5..

    – Then you have people that will say screw that, because driving will take less time then going through all the going to the bus stop, getting off the bus stop to get to the light rail etc etc. Will end up driving into work, which will create more traffic on the freeways.

    If I wanted to take light rail to work, I would have moved to Folsom.

  • #276568

    EGL Admin
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    I completely agree that it’s possible more people will drive, that currently take the bus, but maybe more people that drive, will just drive to CRC instead and take light rail.

    Will there be a charge to park at CRC?

  • #276569

    EGL Admin
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    @wildoates 106175 wrote:

    That’s why I’d rather drive.

    Oslo’s got a combination of buses, trains, and subway that gets you about fairly well, although it’s expensive. England is the same, but it’s really expensive. Parking is a bitch in downtown Oslo–like most largish cities–so oftentimes it’s more convenient to just take public transportation. When I was there for Christmas, instead of driving, we hopped on the train in their suburb and were Downtown in fifteen minutes. My son said he couldn’t have made it in the car any faster, so I was good with that. The airport train is hugely convenient, going from Oslo Sentralstasion directly into the terminal in about 25 minutes. I wish we could do that with SFO or even our own airport.

    I once checked to see about taking E-tran to work, but it would take nearly an hour and a half to make the connections at certain times of day. No way am I doing that every day if I don’t have to. I’d rather ride my bike those, what? Five, six miles from Hampton Oaks to LCHS?

    No way it’s worth it for you to take public transit for what you need.

  • #276681

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 106178 wrote:

    I completely agree that it’s possible more people will drive, that currently take the bus, but maybe more people that drive, will just drive to CRC instead and take light rail.

    Will there be a charge to park at CRC?

    Yes, I know it’s about $2 a day. Because thats the same price as SCC. Unless RT has something worked out with the schools now. I do know that the meadoview station charges you money, $15 a month.

  • #276728

    Bainc
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    @EGL Admin 106178 wrote:

    I completely agree that it’s possible more people will drive, that currently take the bus, but maybe more people that drive, will just drive to CRC instead and take light rail.

    Will there be a charge to park at CRC?

    I’m sure they’ll get some extra riders and lose others. If you live close to CRC or near Franklin/Big Horn you might give light rail a shot and just drive over there and park.

  • #276729

    Bainc
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    @wildoates 106175 wrote:

    I once checked to see about taking E-tran to work, but it would take nearly an hour and a half to make the connections at certain times of day. No way am I doing that every day if I don’t have to. I’d rather ride my bike those, what? Five, six miles from Hampton Oaks to LCHS?

    When the weather is nice you could bike it in under 30 minutes. Could double as your exercise for the day too.

  • #276650

    newmom
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    Don’t major cities like NYC, SF, Wash DC have multiple forms of public transportation that are always running? Light rail doesn’t need to be the only form of public transportation. To eliminate other forms would be short sighted.

  • #276664

    tomwaltman
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    The Metro in DC is pretty extensive, and it gets you close enough. I used it quite a bit, and always found it to be safe and worth the time. I used to take the train and BART to the city when I had my office there. That was an easy trip (Financial Dist). loved being that close to the Ferry Building.

    I think the biggest problem with Light Rail is that people do not believe it is safe. Even if that isn’t true, it is the perception, and RT has to change that to get ridership up.

  • #276682

    gearshark23
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    ^x2

  • #276570

    EGL Admin
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    I agree with Tom. Pretty much no way in hell I’m taking light rail through the ghetto unless there is an armed guard on each train. And no way at night time.

  • #276683

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 106196 wrote:

    I agree with Tom. Pretty much no way in hell I’m taking light rail through the ghetto unless there is an armed guard on each train. And no way at night time.

    Going from EG to downtown you have to roll through Meadowview which has had about 5 shootings in the past 2 weeks.

  • #276730

    Bainc
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    I’ve taken light rail numerous times during commute hours as well as lunch time. It’s really not that bad but I’m a guy under 40. I don’t see many of the ladies in their 50’s-60’s that currently ride e-tran feeling comfortable on light rail. Perception is reality and light rail has a PR issue with fare jumpers, thugs, and homeless people. Beyond that it’s too slow. Have some express trains that skip south Sac and its be more likely to ride.

  • #276672

    MooseMom
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    I am one of your “missing” demographic -female, between 50 and 60 (closer to 60 truth be told)… I ride Light Rail from Meadowview to downtown probably 20 out of 22 work days/month. Yes, I ride during commute time, when most of the passengers are also on their way to work. Coming home, we do get some more kids on the train, sometimes they get noisy/rowdy, but I have very seldom felt like I was in any sort of personal danger ever (in 10 years or so riding LR). I did ride e-tran for awhile – did not like how often the busses broke down, how far the stops were from where I live/work, and the INfrequency of run times. Now, I leave the house at 5:40am, and am in the office by 6:30am. Leave office at 2:30pm, and in the door at home about 3:30pm. No biggie. Yes, if I have to drive in, it is faster, but then I have to contend with the other drivers, pay for parking, pay for gas, etc… I’m looking forward to the LR extension being done so I can get to the terminal sooner. Yes, I will consider riding my bike in nice weather IF they ever put in sidewalks up Bruceville north of Big Horn!

  • #276675

    wildoates
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    I used to ride my bike when I lived in the Pocket, but going down Meadowview from I-5 to Franklin was not at all fun. I’m closer now, so maybe I need to get my bike back in gear and try it again.

  • #276684

    gearshark23
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    MooseMom you have prime hours. No traffic going to or coming from work.

    I miss my 6:00 – 3:30…

    Now I’m 7:45 or whenever I get in till 4:30. Traffic makes a huge difference between 4:55 and 5:00.

  • #276646

    bevone
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    @tomwaltman 106193 wrote:

    The Metro in DC is pretty extensive, and it gets you close enough. I used it quite a bit, and always found it to be safe and worth the time. I used to take the train and BART to the city when I had my office there. That was an easy trip (Financial Dist). loved being that close to the Ferry Building.

    I think the biggest problem with Light Rail is that people do not believe it is safe. Even if that isn’t true, it is the perception, and RT has to change that to get ridership up.

    Even if Light Rail is safe a lot of people (including myself) do not want to put up with the trash that we are sometimes stuck riding the train with because of the lack of gate keeping. The nice thing about riding a commuter bus is the driver shows the scofflaws the door if they misbehave or don’t pay. Those folks who ride during commuter hours are fine, but mid day or after hours? Forget it.

  • #276762

    Aggies49
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    Bainc, thank you for sharing this information. Doesn’t seem like many etran passengers are aware of what is going on.
    As a female passenger on etran, I am totally against this proposed idea. I do not like light rail. I have been harassed by other riders and fear for my safety. I have little faith in the promise from RT that they will improve safety. I think they will make changes but I don’t think there will be a significant impact. I like etran because the drivers can regulate behavior to an extent, the buses are cleaner, and the passengers are more pleasant. Doesn’t seem like the surveys were taken too seriously.
    I enjoy having a straight shot trip to my office downtown. I don’t want to have to get up and transfer to a train and hope that there aren’t any missed connections. I also think about older passengers who may not be able to or want to run to catch a waiting train. To me, this just seems like a money saving idea to cut payroll for drivers and to save money on maintenance. I am contemplating writing a letter to Mayor Davis to voice my concerns but I am not sure what good it will do. From the passengers I spoke to today, they were not in favor of this proposal.

  • #276571

    EGL Admin
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    Absolutely you should write the council letter. If they don’t hear from people they have no reason not to do it.

  • #276763

    Aggies49
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    Would you recommend writing to a specific council member or to the Mayor himself?

  • #276572

    EGL Admin
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    I would write to all of them. The mayor is only one person. He doesn’t have any more pull on these decisions than anyone else. Here’s a link to get all their email addresses

    http://www.elkgrovecity.org/city_hall/city_government/city_council

  • #276764

    Aggies49
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    @EGL Admin 106376 wrote:

    I would write to all of them. The mayor is only one person. He doesn’t have any more pull on these decisions than anyone else. Here’s a link to get all their email addresses

    http://www.elkgrovecity.org/city_hall/city_government/city_council

    Awesome!! Thank you so much. I will try to encourage fellow passengers to speak up as well

  • #276685

    gearshark23
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    I’m going to be writing a letter as well. I will also write again if this moves forward.

  • #276731

    Bainc
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    In addition to writing I’d suggest showing up at tonights council meeting and voice your concerns during public comment. Be respectful and tell them how this hurts you as a customer. They tend to respond well to public outrage.

    Seems like some type of hybrid plan would work.

  • #276573

    EGL Admin
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    You mean if you go up there and screech and tell them they aren’t smarter than a 5th grader, that it won’t help their cause? 😉

  • #276732

    Bainc
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    I won’t mention any names but Mike and Lynn come to mind. Oops I guess I did.

  • #276765

    Aggies49
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    I received an email from Councilman Suen about this:
    Thank you for your email. The city will conduct outreach sessions on this matter and I look forward to the discussion.

    The long term objectives to bring light rail all the way into the city, increasing mobility within the city, and providing meaningful information to the federal government for future funding opportunities will necessitate changes in current operations at some point.

    The effective magnitude of these changes to you and other commuters are not lost on the council. I welcome your suggestion below and have copied Jean Foletta on this email for her analysis.

    I trust that together we will develop an implementation strategy that will be beneficial for the city’s future and minimize any disruption to your lives.

    Thanks again.

    Sincerely,

    Darren Suen

  • #276766

    Aggies49
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    The workshops to discuss the changes to the bus service will be held Thursday March 12th and March 26th at 6:00pm at 8400 Laguna Palms. Hope to see a lot of people!

  • #276686

    gearshark23
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    I sent my email just now, well I’m finishing up the final touches. I am going to try to get to the meeting this Thursday. If not then the 26 I will be there.

  • #276767

    Aggies49
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    Glad to hear that you are getting involved, gearshark. Every letter helps!

  • #276687

    gearshark23
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    There is a petition being signed as well. I believe all busses should have that petition on board.

  • #276768

    Aggies49
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    I wish all of the buses could have the petition on board. However, it is hard to distribute them on so many routes and get those signatures back to the petition coordinators.

  • #276688

    gearshark23
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    I found out from a co worker that someone was standing outside the stops having people sign them.

  • #276769

    Aggies49
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    People are trying to collect signatures. Hope the City pays attention to the amount of signatures.

  • #276733

    Bainc
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    I’m at the public meeting and there are a ton of angry folks here. I’d say over 100.

  • #276574

    EGL Admin
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    Nice. Give us an update at the end.

  • #276734

    Bainc
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    It’s almost a mob scene. New councilmen Suen is getting an ear full. The lady from RT got shouted down when she said the demographic on light rail was the same as the general population that’s downtown.

  • #276770

    Aggies49
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    I was also at the meeting. It was clear that the ETran and Councilman Suen were very intent on making people look at the maps and photos of the light rail stations. However, the people in attendance had a very different agenda and wanted to make their voices heard. They spoke up and made comments which shot down the workshop style plan and made it more into a discussion. I was very pleased to see everyone control the workshop and let their voices be heard. The leaders certainly did get an earful.

  • #276575

    EGL Admin
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    That’s how it should be. Make your voices heard.

  • #276665

    tomwaltman
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    I read a Facebook discussion where the writers, one of whom attended the workshop, claim that everyone that objected was a “thinly veiled racist.” Another, who apparently did not attend the workshop, change that to flat out racists. Did you bring your white hoods? Burn any crosses? Mention the fact that RT is holding workshops to discuss how to make Light Rail safer?

  • #276576

    EGL Admin
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    LOL, were they from Mos Eisley aka the other site?

    It’s funny how wanting to be safe and not wanting to go through South Sac make a person a racist. It’s way more than that. It’s convenience. Do you want to ride a bus on a straight shot to Sac or take the bus to light rail and then have multiple stops and it takes longer. Kind of a no brainer there. It’s more about convenience than safety or fear. We can thank the activists for this though. Be careful what you wish for. You want light rail and mass transit, then that what’s you get. The idea behind it is too funnel people to mass transit, in this case light rail. On the outside and as someone who doesn’t use transit system, the city’s plan makes sense and probably saves money or allows them to better utilize that money to run more busses to and from light rail instead of the long haul to Sac. I think that is the future of transit. But it stinks for the people who are now riding the bus because it will make it more difficult and less likely they continue. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

  • #276651

    newmom
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    But no city relies on one form of mass transit alone. It will be too crowded and take too long. There are typically multiple forms- with multiple routes available to people. In this case, the city is eliminating a system that many, many people utilize. Mass transit is supposed to be convenient for people-that is why they choose it rather than their cars. Eliminating an already popular method of transportation and forcing people into one system that will take longer isn’t convenient for people. The safety is an entirely different issue but that typical devolvement of that discussion has already taken place.

  • #276577

    EGL Admin
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    The busses should be used around the city. I’m not familiar with the Bay Area, are there busses that take people from SF to Oakland or is it just BART?

    Mass transit isn’t convenient and really isn’t supposed to be. If I was a bus rider I would be upset too, but the point of light rail is to transport more people at a time and to an area and then they can disperse from there. Doesn’t make sense to have busses and trains going to the same general area. The reason we had busses was because there were no trains here. Now that it’s coming closer, it makes sense to get people to the start of light rail. I think that is the city’s intention. Once light rail comes here, do you think they will still run the busses downtown because it’s more convenient for some people? I am sure RT eliminated some bus routes once LR came to Meadowview.

  • #276652

    newmom
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    In SF there are those Muni buses and muni train things that run around the city of SF, plus BART. I don’t know about buses running from other cities into SF.

  • #276653

    newmom
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    Also, mass transit is supposed to be convenient so that people feel it meets their needs rather than driving on their own. If people think it’s a hassle or the times don’t work, they aren’t going to take mass transit.

  • #276673

    loonyman
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    AC Transit runs from East Bay to Downtown SF. SF Muni buses only go as far as Treasure Island. BART is the mass transit option for most commuters. Sam Trans (San Mateo County Transit) has some buses that run into downtown SF, mostly on Mission St.

  • #276578

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 107577 wrote:

    Also, mass transit is supposed to be convenient so that people feel it meets their needs rather than driving on their own. If people think it’s a hassle or the times don’t work, they aren’t going to take mass transit.

    I disagree. Mass transit is rarely convenient. It’s meant to meet the needs of the community, not the individual though. In order to get to mass transit, you often have to walk, ride or drive to a place, then wait. Then you often make multiple stops. You are standing or sitting next to strangers, who may smell, act weird, talk too loudly on their phone. Then you get to the end destination and you have to then walk or ride to where you need to get to. There is nothing convenient about that. The benefits are you aren’t spending money on gas or maintenance, parking your car or sit in traffic. You don’t always get there faster. In some cases it may even take longer because of the stops.

  • #276579

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 107576 wrote:

    In SF there are those Muni buses and muni train things that run around the city of SF, plus BART. I don’t know about buses running from other cities into SF.

    And that’s my point. If something like BART or light rail is an option, busses don’t run between cities. Are there busses that take people from Folsom to Sacramento? I don’t know, but I doubt it. Don’t get me wrong, if I rode the bus now from EG to Sac, I would be upset too. The object of light rail is to funnel people to it and transport that way. Busses should not be running from Elk Grove to Sac if light rail is this close. The reality is that some people will opt out of taking the bus to light rail and either drive or car pool. More people will take light rail since it will be easier to get to know from Elk Grove. I don’t think light rail is that unsafe during commute times. That’s what most people have said.

    By all means people should make their voices heard and maybe the city will change, but I wouldn’t count on that. They can use the busses and run more routes to and from light rail at CRC and that will more than make up for the people who currently ride busses who will stop. It will be a net gain and more cars off the road which is the plan. You can’t possible make everyone happy.

  • #276771

    Aggies49
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    @newmom 107573 wrote:

    But no city relies on one form of mass transit alone. It will be too crowded and take too long. There are typically multiple forms- with multiple routes available to people. In this case, the city is eliminating a system that many, many people utilize. Mass transit is supposed to be convenient for people-that is why they choose it rather than their cars. Eliminating an already popular method of transportation and forcing people into one system that will take longer isn’t convenient for people. The safety is an entirely different issue but that typical devolvement of that discussion has already taken place.

    Newmom I agree with you 100%.

    Here is a link to an article about the meeting:
    http://www.elkgrovenews.net/2015/03/elk-grove-rt-officials-hear-earful-from.html

  • #276654

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 107590 wrote:

    And that’s my point. If something like BART or light rail is an option, busses don’t run between cities. Are there busses that take people from Folsom to Sacramento? I don’t know, but I doubt it. Don’t get me wrong, if I rode the bus now from EG to Sac, I would be upset too. The object of light rail is to funnel people to it and transport that way. Busses should not be running from Elk Grove to Sac if light rail is this close. The reality is that some people will opt out of taking the bus to light rail and either drive or car pool. More people will take light rail since it will be easier to get to know from Elk Grove. I don’t think light rail is that unsafe during commute times. That’s what most people have said.

    By all means people should make their voices heard and maybe the city will change, but I wouldn’t count on that. They can use the busses and run more routes to and from light rail at CRC and that will more than make up for the people who currently ride busses who will stop. It will be a net gain and more cars off the road which is the plan. You can’t possible make everyone happy.

    I disagree. The purpose of light rail is another mass transit option for people. Not the ONLY method. You can’t rely on one method.

  • #276580

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 107601 wrote:

    I disagree. The purpose of light rail is another mass transit option for people. Not the ONLY method. You can’t rely on one method.

    What do other cities do? Do they have busses that run from city to city? I don’t know. It’s not relying on one option. It’s using busses to get people to light rail. What’s the point of light rail then? For the money spent, they could have used more busses running back and forth and be less costly. It’s not about convenience. If it was, they would have numerous smaller busses taking people. You would have less stops and be more convenient.

    How many people currently ride those busses now? That would be good to know.

  • #276655

    newmom
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    The problem is that most other cities have a regional transportation system, rather than city by city. Elk Grove has our own bus system and now it is a problem.

    Look at the Bay Area and all the cities and transportation methods they have.

    http://tripplanner.transit.511.org/mtc/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=en

  • #276564

    DivotMaker
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    I use Placer Commuter Express a few times a month. Basically, there are about 7 stops in Placer County, starting near Colfax and ending at Sun Splash in Roseville. Then we jump on 80 and it drops everyone off at one of 8 locations. There are 4 buses, and some hit all the stops, and some bypass a few to save time. I catch the 4:19 bus down here and we get to my exit in Penryn around 5:25 and I’m hope 10 minutes later. It would take me 40-45 mins to drive by myself, plus gas and parking fees so I don’t mind it. Plus, the buses are very comfortable and clean.

  • #276735

    Bainc
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    Most people understand you make sacrifices to ride public transit. But the proposed changes are increasing the inconvenience. A 35 minute solo drive becomes a 55-60 min bus ride. It’s slower but riders will sacrifice 20-25 minutes to save some gas, not pay to park, have less stress by not sitting in traffic, etc. With the proposed changes the 55-60 min bus ride becomes at 1:15 bus, train, walking trip. Will riders continue to take public transit if the time sacrifice is now 40-45 min? I know for me personally…I’ll be driving solo.

    Anyone who currently drives solo should care because if you add 1,000 cars to the freeway in addition to the extra vehicles that will be coming as Elk Grove develops the freeways will become even more clogged.

    In Folsom light rail actually comes to their city with 3 stops in the city. Light rail to CRC is close to Elk Grove but it’s not in Elk Grove. Residents in the southern end of Elk Grove are at good 7 to 8 miles from CRC. A similar situation to what E-Tran is proposing would be if El Dorado Transit only took their passengers to LR in Folsom, which they don’t do.

    The pocket area of Sac still has buses that take riders downtown. RT didn’t reroute all their passengers to Light Rail at Florin or Meadowview. The Pocket area is much closer to Light Rail then the majority of Elk Grove residents are to CRC.

    I doubt divotMaker would be taking the Placer Commuter Express if the bus only took them to the Watt/I-80 station to transfer to Light Rail.

  • #276565

    DivotMaker
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    @bainc 107614 wrote:

    I doubt divotMaker would be taking the Placer Commuter Express if the bus only took them to the Watt/I-80 station to transfer to Light Rail.

    You got that right.

  • #276581

    EGL Admin
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    How many people ride the bus now from Elk Grove to Sac? You mentioned 1000 more cars. Is that his many people use it? Do you think that maybe some people who currently don’t use light rail may start and thus take more cars off the road? If not then what is the point of light rail?

  • #276736

    Bainc
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    Last night they estimated 1,000 people use the commuter routes. My point is the non-public transit uses are still effected by public transit. Remember when BART was on strike and everybody drove into SF? The freeways were a complete cluster.

    I’m sure some additional people who live in South Sac or the very northern reaches of EG will use Light Rail. Mostly I think it will be used by those who live very close or students who take classes at CRC. When I was in school I tooks classes at CRC and others at Sac City on the same days. It would have been real nice to take the train between the schools. I’m not anti Light Rail but I’m against service being worse then before LR to CRC. If LR had express trains and were faster or even the same as the bus then I’m all for it. Commuters from Elk Grove don’t need to stop at the 12-15 stops between EG and downtown.

  • #276666

    tomwaltman
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    snarky state worker comment removed by poster who thought better before hitting post…

  • #276582

    EGL Admin
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    @bainc 107623 wrote:

    Last night they estimated 1,000 people use the commuter routes. My point is the non-public transit uses are still effected by public transit. Remember when BART was on strike and everybody drove into SF? The freeways were a complete cluster.

    I’m sure some additional people who live in South Sac or the very northern reaches of EG will use Light Rail. Mostly I think it will be used by those who live very close or students who take classes at CRC. When I was in school I tooks classes at CRC and others at Sac City on the same days. It would have been real nice to take the train between the schools. I’m not anti Light Rail but I’m against service being worse then before LR to CRC. If LR had express trains and were faster or even the same as the bus then I’m all for it. Commuters from Elk Grove don’t need to stop at the 12-15 stops between EG and downtown.

    You’re making my point that light rail isn’t all that. Try telling to that to all these activists who have been complaining for years that the city wasn’t doing enough to get light rail, like Sarah Johnson and Lynn Wheat. Neither of whom will ever take Light Rail. In my opinion it’s not worth the extra money to bring it 2.5 miles down into Elk Grove. Just run more buses instead.

    I do think you are underestimating the number of additional people who will take light rail that now don’t. One of our friends works for the state and often times will drive or ride his bike to Meadowview to catch light rail. If you live near Laguna and Bruceville, why would you not take light rail? It’s less than a two mile drive. Even if it is people who live near CRC or south sac, that is still less cars on the road. I think you’re offering too much of a doomsday scenario that all 1000 will drive. I’ll bet many will take light rail. Some will commute and with the additional people taking LR that now don’t, you will see less cars on the road then than you do now. Think positive! Plus it it means less cars, then you can drive and be even faster because of light rail. 🙂

  • #276772

    Aggies49
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    @EGL Admin 107633 wrote:

    You’re making my point that light rail isn’t all that. Try telling to that to all these activists who have been complaining for years that the city wasn’t doing enough to get light rail, like Sarah Johnson and Lynn Wheat. Neither of whom will ever take Light Rail. In my opinion it’s not worth the extra money to bring it 2.5 miles down into Elk Grove. Just run more buses instead.

    I do think you are underestimating the number of additional people who will take light rail that now don’t. One of our friends works for the state and often times will drive or ride his bike to Meadowview to catch light rail. If you live near Laguna and Bruceville, why would you not take light rail? It’s less than a two mile drive. Even if it is people who live near CRC or south sac, that is still less cars on the road. I think you’re offering too much of a doomsday scenario that all 1000 will drive. I’ll bet many will take light rail. Some will commute and with the additional people taking LR that now don’t, you will see less cars on the road then than you do now. Think positive! Plus it it means less cars, then you can drive and be even faster because of light rail. 🙂

    I’d like to hear your thoughts about the idea of having some routes terminate at light rail while others go to downtown Sacramento. I still think some routes need to terminate in downtown Sacramento because light rail doesn’t serve part of the downtown area. I think of CalPERS and BOE workers near 4th st. since the nearest train comes to 8th and Capitol.

  • #276583

    EGL Admin
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    I’m fine with them continuing the current bus routes. I just don’t think that’s going to be the plan as evidenced by why they are having these meetings. Unless the negativity from the decision is just too much. I think the meetings were meant to grease the skids to get people on board. Good for you guys though for speaking up. That’s how it should work.

  • #276737

    Bainc
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    Some type of hybrid plan would seem appropriate. Run some of the buses to CRC and others downtown. It doesn’t make sense to have commuters who live in Laguna West to take a bus up Franklin to LR. They are already right next to I-5. Look at what they did in Pocket as an example.

  • #276584

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    I think that makes sense. That’s probably what they will end up doing unless they are set on just everything going to light rail. They could blame it on the activists and call it the Sarah Johnson loop to light rail and back. 🙂

  • #276667

    tomwaltman
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    I wonder how much influence SACOG has in this decision…?

  • #276689

    gearshark23
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    I was off on Friday and came back to 3+ pages.

    I agree 100% with Bainc. Me myself a Laguna West resident does not want to go all the way to CRC for light rail. It will take me 20 minutes to drive over there and it would take longer if I jumped on a bus over to Franklin. If it does happen, I will become a solo driver like I stated before, or I will go park in Pocket and take one of those routes.

    I wasn’t able to attend the workshop something came up last minute, but I will be at the one next week.

  • #276585

    EGL Admin
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    You’re not allowed to take a day off from posting here. Didn’t you get the memo? :taser

  • #276586

    EGL Admin
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    Anyone going to the meeting on the 26th? I might have to go check it out and see what is going on.

  • #276773

    Aggies49
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    @EGL Admin 107958 wrote:

    Anyone going to the meeting on the 26th? I might have to go check it out and see what is going on.

    I plan on going.

  • #276690

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 107958 wrote:

    Anyone going to the meeting on the 26th? I might have to go check it out and see what is going on.

    I plan on going as well.

  • #276774

    Aggies49
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    I wonder if it’s going to be anything like the first workshop.

  • #276691

    gearshark23
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    I might be moving away from EG but I’m still pushing for E-tran to stay.

    This just came through the channels about 3 hours ago.

  • #276587

    EGL Admin
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    @gearshark23 107999 wrote:

    I might be moving away from EG but I’m still pushing for E-tran to stay.

    This just came through the channels about 3 hours ago.

    Where are you moving to?

  • #276588

    EGL Admin
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    @aggies49 107997 wrote:

    I wonder if it’s going to be anything like the first workshop.

    I’m taking a video if it is! 🙂

  • #276589

    EGL Admin
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    The Sac Bee is coming out with a story about this possibly this week or next, or so I have been told. 🙂

  • #276738

    Bainc
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    @gearshark23 107999 wrote:

    I might be moving away from EG but I’m still pushing for E-tran to stay.

    This just came through the channels about 3 hours ago.

    You moving?

  • #276739

    Bainc
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    I read somewhere they’re bringing in RT police to talk about safety. I for one don’t care about safety and the others that do won’t have their minds changed by talking about how the stations are designed with low plants to prevent people from hiding etc. Talk to me about how this change will be faster or just as fast as the current express service.

  • #276692

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108001 wrote:

    Where are you moving to?

    @bainc 108005 wrote:

    You moving?

    Not 100% sure yet, weighing the options, but just outside of EG in Galt.

    @bainc 108007 wrote:

    I read somewhere they’re bringing in RT police to talk about safety. I for one don’t care about safety and the others that do won’t have their minds changed by talking about how the stations are designed with low plants to prevent people from hiding etc. Talk to me about how this change will be faster or just as fast as the current express service.

    I’m the same way. How is the light rail going to be faster for us especially on the I-5 side.

  • #276590

    EGL Admin
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    It won’t be faster, but safety is an issue for some. From CRC to downtown makes some stops in bad areas. I think the city would like to just shuttle everyone to the light rail, but the uproar over all this may force them to change their plans. It’s still about money. Fares only pay for about 25% of the cost of E Tran. How much should the city have to pay to subsidize it? I would say, keep the current express service, but raise the fares to make it less costly. Otherwise, shuttle to the light rail. Which is another reason why I see no rush to bring light rail to Elk Grove and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on that. I think that is a waste of money. Cheaper to have a fleet of buses going from Elk Grove to CRC.

  • #276693

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108010 wrote:

    It won’t be faster, but safety is an issue for some. From CRC to downtown makes some stops in bad areas. I think the city would like to just shuttle everyone to the light rail, but the uproar over all this may force them to change their plans. It’s still about money. Fares only pay for about 25% of the cost of E Tran. How much should the city have to pay to subsidize it? I would say, keep the current express service, but raise the fares to make it less costly. Otherwise, shuttle to the light rail. Which is another reason why I see no rush to bring light rail to Elk Grove and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on that. I think that is a waste of money. Cheaper to have a fleet of buses going from Elk Grove to CRC.

    I would pay more in fare. Honestly, that was the topic on the bus yesterday. People said they would just drive to CRC and not take the shuttle to CRC. E-tran made that “proposed” budget of how much they will save. If people just drive to CRC I feel that E-tran would shut down. Because the local routes aren’t very active except for the school kids.

  • #276591

    EGL Admin
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    I’m the same way. How is the light rail going to be faster for us especially on the I-5 side.

    Let me play Devil’s Advocate here. That’s not really the point. It’s not about keeping it faster for a small percentage of residents who live by I-5. I’m not trying to be a jerk about it, but people who live near 99 or on the east side don’t really care if the people by I-5 have to take extra time to get to where their going. It’s what’s best for the city as a whole, not some individuals. That being said, I think a hybrid plan is the answer. Have less buses going to Sac and more to CRC. I would rather the city spend money on fixing the intersections out here on Bradshaw, because that would benefit me the most, but that is selfish of me.

  • #276694

    gearshark23
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    I think there are more riders on the I-5 side then the 99 side. I think the whole idea is just stupid. But I can see where you are coming from.

    But I’m with Bainc…. How is it going to be faster in general? I just added the I-5 side… Add more riders to the light rail. It’s already packed as it is during the commute hours.

  • #276592

    EGL Admin
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    Is E tran faster than driving a car up i-5?

  • #276740

    Bainc
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    @EGL Admin 108022 wrote:

    Is E tran faster than driving a car up i-5?

    No, of course not. E-Tran is already slower, most if not all public transit is slower. Just don’t increase how slow taking Public Transit is already. Then I’m with you Doc why even have Light Rail if all you did was increase the average commuters time by 20 min. Push RT to make service improvements like Express Trains. The entire route between CRC and Downtown is only 11 miles. That’s it only 11 miles! It shouldn’t take 35 minutes except they have 12 stops over those 11 miles. If I could get on a train at CRC and make one stop at City College then 3 or 4 stops downtown I’d be on that train everyday.

  • #276695

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108022 wrote:

    Is E tran faster than driving a car up i-5?

    Actually it depends. Depends on what entrance you get on at. If you get on at Laguna on a Wednesday when the single person lanes are backed up to the first Apple computer building. Possibly yes, since the bus hits the carpool entrance after picking up at Harbor Pointe.

  • #276696

    gearshark23
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    @bainc 108025 wrote:

    No, of course not. E-Tran is already slower, most if not all public transit is slower. Just don’t increase how slow taking Public Transit is already. Then I’m with you Doc why even have Light Rail if all you did was increase the average commuters time by 20 min. Push RT to make service improvements like Express Trains. The entire route between CRC and Downtown is only 11 miles. That’s it only 11 miles! It shouldn’t take 35 minutes except they have 12 stops over those 11 miles. If I could get on a train at CRC and make one stop at City College then 3 or 4 stops downtown I’d be on that train everyday.

    I may do that…. An express train….

  • #276775

    Aggies49
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    @gearshark23 108060 wrote:

    I may do that…. An express train….

    If I recall correctly, I thought the RT representative at the workshop pretty much dismissed that option.

  • #276741

    Bainc
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    It’s not an option now but if SACOG, RT, and city leaders are serious about getting people on Public Transit they need to figure it out.

  • #276593

    EGL Admin
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    @bainc 108075 wrote:

    It’s not an option now but if SACOG, RT, and city leaders are serious about getting people on Public Transit they need to figure it out.

    They should but they won’t. It’s not cost effective probably. Which brings us back to the point of what is the point of light rail and public transit and how much should taxpayers pay for it? I know one, it’s not meant to be faster or convenient. Is it geared towards people who don’t have cars? Is it for the people who need to use it once a week or a few times a month? If anything this tells me don’t bring this to Elk Grove. On a good day, how long will it take to get to downtown from Elk Grove? 45 minutes? The only benefit I see is that it maybe gets more people off the freeway and that makes it easier for me to get somewhere.

  • #276697

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108077 wrote:

    They should but they won’t. It’s not cost effective probably. Which brings us back to the point of what is the point of light rail and public transit and how much should taxpayers pay for it? I know one, it’s not meant to be faster or convenient. Is it geared towards people who don’t have cars? Is it for the people who need to use it once a week or a few times a month? If anything this tells me don’t bring this to Elk Grove. On a good day, how long will it take to get to downtown from Elk Grove? 45 minutes? The only benefit I see is that it maybe gets more people off the freeway and that makes it easier for me to get somewhere.

    By car or transit?

    All depends. 99 or 5 or Franklin all the way down?

  • #276594

    EGL Admin
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    By light rail. By car it won’t take that long. What’s the fastest light rail will get from CRC to downtown? By car with no traffic you can get to downtown in less than 15.

  • #276698

    gearshark23
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    Light rail, probably 45-60 mins.

    I know from Folsom to Downtown it’s an hour.

    For me it only takes 20 mins on the bus because I’m the 2nd to last stop leaving EG and the 2nd to last stop leaving Downtown.

  • #276647

    joy
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    @EGL Admin 108085 wrote:

    By light rail. By car it won’t take that long. What’s the fastest light rail will get from CRC to downtown? By car with no traffic you can get to downtown in less than 15.

    I take it you don’t drive north on a freeway at 7:30am very often. 🙂

  • #276595

    EGL Admin
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    I don’t think it takes an hour to get from Elk Grove to Sac does it?

  • #276648

    joy
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    An hour, or 15 minutes?

    It is not my normal route but when I do go that way I leave 45 minutes to get where I am going. Most of the time I make it, sometimes not.

    Today it took me 75 minutes to do a 40 minute drive from south of here. All depends on just how many idiots decide to crash into each other.

  • #276656

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 108116 wrote:

    I don’t think it takes an hour to get from Elk Grove to Sac does it?

    When I commuted from Laguna West to Alta Arden (last done in 1999) It would take well over an hour and I had to be there by 7:30AM. There are a heck of a lot more people in EG now too.

  • #276596

    EGL Admin
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    My niece commutes from Rancho Murieta and it takes her less than an hour.

  • #276597

    EGL Admin
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    @joy 108117 wrote:

    An hour, or 15 minutes?

    It is not my normal route but when I do go that way I leave 45 minutes to get where I am going. Most of the time I make it, sometimes not.

    Today it took me 75 minutes to do a 40 minute drive from south of here. All depends on just how many idiots decide to crash into each other.

    Are you driving 25? The 15 minutes was if there is no traffic.

  • #276699

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108116 wrote:

    I don’t think it takes an hour to get from Elk Grove to Sac does it?

    Depending on what day it is, what freeway you’re on and how many idiots are driving stupid which is usually all the time.

  • #276657

    newmom
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    @EGL Admin 108122 wrote:

    My niece commutes from Rancho Murieta and it takes her less than an hour.

    I really doubt that. I had to be in the office earlier than most, and this was before most of EG was developed like it is now. And I was definitely an aggressive driver

  • #276668

    tomwaltman
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    I would drive from Elk Grove to Natomas every weekday on I-5. some days it would take 40-45 mins, others over an hour. That was leaving at 7:30 AM. I would not take 99 at that time. It would take over an hour every single time. When I worked downtown in Sacramento, I would leave at 7:00 AM to be there at 8:00 AM using I-5. Huge swings in time to get there. Sometimes it was 30 mins, other times over an hour. If there was any kind of significant accident, it would be well over an hour.

  • #276700

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108122 wrote:

    My niece commutes from Rancho Murieta and it takes her less than an hour.

    @newmom 108140 wrote:

    I really doubt that. I had to be in the office earlier than most, and this was before most of EG was developed like it is now. And I was definitely an aggressive driver

    I don’t see that either. Commutes to where, Sacramento? It take almost an hour dealing with all the idiots on 99 from EG Blvd to the split. Then once you take the split to Downtown you have some traffic there.

    @tomwaltman 108143 wrote:

    I would drive from Elk Grove to Natomas every weekday on I-5. some days it would take 40-45 mins, others over an hour. That was leaving at 7:30 AM. I would not take 99 at that time. It would take over an hour every single time. When I worked downtown in Sacramento, I would leave at 7:00 AM to be there at 8:00 AM using I-5. Huge swings in time to get there. Sometimes it was 30 mins, other times over an hour. If there was any kind of significant accident, it would be well over an hour.

    I used to work in Natomas as well, I would leave home when I lived off of Big Horn and EG Blvd at 7:05-7:10 everyday, and I would take I-5 and wouldn’t get to Garden Highway until 7:50 – 8:00. Sometimes I would get there quicker though.

  • #276649

    joy
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    @EGL Admin 108123 wrote:

    Are you driving 25? The 15 minutes was if there is no traffic.

    My point was that there is never not traffic during the commute times being discussed. You are right. Zero traffic and it is an easy ride up. Even ten years ago I think you had a chance at close to that once in a while during commute hours. No more. The volume of cars has just gotten so much larger.

  • #276598

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 108140 wrote:

    I really doubt that. I had to be in the office earlier than most, and this was before most of EG was developed like it is now. And I was definitely an aggressive driver

    She goes Jackson to I think 50 or some other way. She works near Arden Way, west of 80.

  • #276701

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108149 wrote:

    She goes Jackson to I think 50 or some other way. She works near Arden Way, west of 80.

    That’s why then LOL.

  • #276599

    EGL Admin
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    @joy 108147 wrote:

    My point was that there is never not traffic during the commute times being discussed. You are right. Zero traffic and it is an easy ride up. Even ten years ago I think you had a chance at close to that once in a while during commute hours. No more. The volume of cars has just gotten so much larger.

    I didn’t say 15 minutes in commute time. Even 15 years ago it wasn’t that fast in commute traffic.

    I had to go Natomas a few times and be there at 8:30 am and I left my house near Bond and Bradshaw and went the back way down Kammerer to I-5 and it took me around 50 minutes.

  • #276600

    EGL Admin
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    Well ya’all might be finding out in September how long it takes to drive there. 😎

  • #276601

    EGL Admin
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    @gearshark23 108150 wrote:

    That’s why then LOL.

    Never said she came all the way to Elk Grove and then took 99. They just moved from Lakeside to RM. Her commute got longer, but they love it out there.

  • #276702

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108153 wrote:

    Never said she came all the way to Elk Grove and then took 99. They just moved from Lakeside to RM. Her commute got longer, but they love it out there.

    I didn’t assume that. It’s all about location. I would move from Lakeside to RM too. Lakeside is having too many rash of buglaries lately.

  • #276602

    EGL Admin
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    They lived in the gated area. They didn’t have too many issues.

  • #276703

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108161 wrote:

    They lived in the gated area. They didn’t have too many issues.

    I have a friend who lives in the gated area next to the park. They’ve liked it too.

  • #276742

    Bainc
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    The drive to downtown on 99 from my house in east EG is usually 40-45 minutes. I leave at 6:45-6:50 and get to work by 7:30. 99 gets worse if you need to get to work at 8 or 8:30. It could easily take 50-55 minutes. Taking the bus up 99 or I-5 is fast but it takes forever arriving early at the bus stop and waiting 5-10 minutes then being slow with all the pickup’s and drop offs. That’s why most are like Gearshark. Get on at the last stop before the freeway and hopefully you’re one of the first stops downtown. Actual time on the bus could be 20 min especially on I-5. I don’t see commuters taking the time to wait for a bus, take it a few miles then transfer to LR. They’ll just drive to CRC if they want to take Public Transit. I wonder how that figures in the city’s financial figures? Do they assume their E-tran ridership will remain the same? I doubt it will. I recall an ice rink in old town that was going to be cost neutral but wasn’t.

  • #276603

    EGL Admin
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    I don’t think anyone really thought the ice rink was really neutral.

  • #276743

    Bainc
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    Before the ice rink was voted on they talked at length about how it would be cost neutral. Turns out their projections were just slightly off. I’m concerned they’ll be doing the same thing with E-tran to CRC. They’ll assume ridership remains the same so the fare box recover rate would remain the same when in actuality everybody might just drive to CRC or the Franklin station and avoid E-Tran altogether.

  • #276604

    EGL Admin
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    I remember doing the numbers on the ice rink based on their projections and there was no way they could meet those numbers. It was a hot topic on here at the time. It was open weekdays when school was in session and hardly anyone was there. I’ll have to find that thread.

  • #276605

    EGL Admin
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    This is just one of many discussions on the ice rink. They needed to average 400 people a day. I knew there was no way they could average that.

    http://www.elkgrove-laguna.net/forums/showthread.php?5042-Ice-skating-rink-financial-numbers-so-far

  • #276744

    Bainc
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    @EGL Admin 108253 wrote:

    This is just one of many discussions on the ice rink. They needed to average 400 people a day. I knew there was no way they could average that.

    http://www.elkgrove-laguna.net/forums/showthread.php?5042-Ice-skating-rink-financial-numbers-so-far

    Good stuff right there.

  • #276676

    wildoates
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    I don’t head in that direction very often at all…I’m an insular little Elk Grovian these days, I’ll tell you. But I’ll take public transportation only if I have to, because it is inconvenient–not to mention expensive. If I worked downtown, that would probably change, but only due to the hassle and expense of parking. Riding for 40 to 45 minutes while hanging on a strap, trying to keep my balance so I don’t fall into the lap of a teen whose headphones are blasting profanities is not really my idea of a good time. If you have to do it, you have to do it, but this California girl prefers to drive.

    /many unpleasant BART memories from my collge days

  • #276776

    Aggies49
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    Just in time for the workshop tomorrow, E-Tran has sent us a follow up survey.
    They can’t possibly be serious about potentially upping a monthly pass to $320…. right??
    http://www.elkgrovecity.org/cms/One.aspx?portalId=109669&pageId=212916

  • #276704

    gearshark23
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    Tomorrow will be busy so get there early.

  • #276606

    EGL Admin
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    I will be there to check it out. I might use the chat to give some live updates.

  • #276705

    gearshark23
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    That would be awesome.

    I will be there too.

    Just looked at the survey, who in the hell made this survey. They’re trying to confuse people who don’t read.

    1 – More Important

    5- Less Important.

    Last time I check surveys I’ve taken are the opposite of what they are doing.

  • #276745

    Bainc
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    The fact that they even put $320/mo on the survey shows how out of touch they really are.

    Sorry I can’t make it tomorrow. Raise some hell for me and give them some reasonable alternatives like a hybrid plan.

  • #276607

    EGL Admin
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    @bainc 108493 wrote:

    The fact that they even put $320/mo on the survey shows how out of touch they really are.

    Sorry I can’t make it tomorrow. Raise some hell for me and give them some reasonable alternatives like a hybrid plan.

    I’ll tell them you said to run all the E Tran routes to CRC. :sarcastic

  • #276706

    gearshark23
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    Don’t worry, if Doc says any of that he will feel rubber bands and tiny paper clips hitting him from a distance. 🙂

    Then when he looks over I’ll wave to him.

  • #276608

    EGL Admin
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    Going to try and broadcast some video from tonight’s meeting at 6 pm. If we do them into watch it will be
    http://ustream.tv/channel/elk-grove-laguna-forums?utm_campaign=www.elkgrove-laguna.net&utm_source=ustre.am%2F111JH&utm_medium=social&utm_content=20150326165923

  • #276609

    EGL Admin
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    Waiting for the meeting to start. Quite the motley crew here. 🙂

  • #276677

    wildoates
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    Put your mirror away, then. 🙂

    It’ll be interesting to hear about people’s opinions and whether they mirror what has been expressed here.

  • #276610

    EGL Admin
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    So far it is definitely anti light rail. One person stood up and is a state worker. She essentially said they work hard and they are entitled to the bus service no matter what it costs. Another person complained about $2 to park.

  • #276777

    Aggies49
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    I think only one person is in favor of the light rail

  • #276778

    Aggies49
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    Detrick and Suen have just arrived.

  • #276611

    EGL Admin
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    @aggies49 108576 wrote:

    Detrick and Suen have just arrived.

    I’m the person recording with the iPad off to the side

  • #276779

    Aggies49
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    @EGL Admin 108577 wrote:

    I’m the person recording with the iPad off to the side

    I thought that was you. I was going to say hi but you were focused.

  • #276612

    EGL Admin
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    @aggies49 108578 wrote:

    I thought that was you. I was going to say hi but you were focused.

    You should have. Did you speak?

  • #276613

    EGL Admin
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    If you missed the meeting the complete video is right here.

    http://ustre.am/111JH

    It’s about 2 hours and 45 minutes.

  • #276780

    Aggies49
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    @EGL Admin 108579 wrote:

    You should have. Did you speak?

    Next time, I will do so. I didn’t speak. I’m more of the observant type. However, I am strongly considering speaking at the City Council meeting. I have a few points I would like to make.
    What were your thoughts on the workshop? Thank you for recording the meeting, I may have to send it to some people who couldn’t attend.

  • #276614

    EGL Admin
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    My thoughts on the meeting.
    People love E Tran. They don’t want any changes at all. I hate to use the term spoiled, but I will. I think some are spoiled by how convenient it has been to use it. One lady said it drops her off right across the street from her office. Light rail would be an 8 block walk. She doesn’t feel safe. Then at that point it’s a choice. She gets to work at 6 am. At that time there is no traffic and she can drive. I don’t think it was meant to give people door to door service. Another lady commented that the commuters are all hard working state and county workers and essentially said they are entitled to have E tran and the city needs to keep it no matter. I had to roll my eyes at that, luckily I was not on camera. You’re not entitled to subsidized transportation no matter what it costs. That’s not how it works and as a taxpayer, that attitude makes me sick. It’s an option for people to use, but it can go away at some point and then you will have to find an alternative.

    Most people were respectful. There was one jerk shouting from the back and being rude. I thought Jean Foleta did a very good job listening to all the questions and comments. I thought the lady from light rail was a bit scary. I thought the police officer did his best, but he didn’t do anything to ease the fears of people there that light rail would be safer. Only one person rides light rail and likes it. Everyone else said they won’t ride it. Which brings me to my next point of why bother bringing light rail here if people are not going to ride it? It will bring the transients and garbage into Elk Grove. Elk Grove people are not going to ride it because it will take too long. So who will it benefit? I think that is something that needs to be looked at very hard. It sounds great to say “bring it here”, but at what cost and will people use it?

  • #276615

    EGL Admin
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    @aggies49 108582 wrote:

    Next time, I will do so. I didn’t speak. I’m more of the observant type. However, I am strongly considering speaking at the City Council meeting. I have a few points I would like to make.
    What were your thoughts on the workshop? Thank you for recording the meeting, I may have to send it to some people who couldn’t attend.

    Sure. I emailed a link to the city council this morning so they can view it.

  • #276707

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108584 wrote:

    My thoughts on the meeting.
    People love E Tran. They don’t want any changes at all. I hate to use the term spoiled, but I will. I think some are spoiled by how convenient it has been to use it. One lady said it drops her off right across the street from her office. Light rail would be an 8 block walk. She doesn’t feel safe. Then at that point it’s a choice. She gets to work at 6 am. At that time there is no traffic and she can drive. I don’t think it was meant to give people door to door service. Another lady commented that the commuters are all hard working state and county workers and essentially said they are entitled to have E tran and the city needs to keep it no matter. I had to roll my eyes at that, luckily I was not on camera. You’re not entitled to subsidized transportation no matter what it costs. That’s not how it works and as a taxpayer, that attitude makes me sick. It’s an option for people to use, but it can go away at some point and then you will have to find an alternative.

    Most people were respectful. There was one jerk shouting from the back and being rude. I thought Jean Foleta did a very good job listening to all the questions and comments. I thought the lady from light rail was a bit scary. I thought the police officer did his best, but he didn’t do anything to ease the fears of people there that light rail would be safer. Only one person rides light rail and likes it. Everyone else said they won’t ride it. Which brings me to my next point of why bother bringing light rail here if people are not going to ride it? It will bring the transients and garbage into Elk Grove. Elk Grove people are not going to ride it because it will take too long. So who will it benefit? I think that is something that needs to be looked at very hard. It sounds great to say “bring it here”, but at what cost and will people use it?

    DOC!!!!!! You got it!!!! I wonder this same question every time I hear that they are going to bring light rail into EG.

  • #276669

    tomwaltman
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    They will bring it here because SACOG says it is going where they say it goes. And the city will play ball if they ever want to see another penny of local, state, or federal money. This is SACOG’s agenda, and they are very aggressive about it. Wanna bet the plan, as originally shown, is they one the City Council approves, likely on a 4-1 vote?

  • #276781

    Aggies49
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    @gearshark23 108587 wrote:

    DOC!!!!!! You got it!!!! I wonder this same question every time I hear that they are going to bring light rail into EG.

    I also agree with that sentiment!!

  • #276782

    Aggies49
    Member
    • Topics - 5
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    @EGL Admin 108584 wrote:

    My thoughts on the meeting.
    People love E Tran. They don’t want any changes at all. I hate to use the term spoiled, but I will. I think some are spoiled by how convenient it has been to use it. One lady said it drops her off right across the street from her office. Light rail would be an 8 block walk. She doesn’t feel safe. Then at that point it’s a choice. She gets to work at 6 am. At that time there is no traffic and she can drive. I don’t think it was meant to give people door to door service. Another lady commented that the commuters are all hard working state and county workers and essentially said they are entitled to have E tran and the city needs to keep it no matter. I had to roll my eyes at that, luckily I was not on camera. You’re not entitled to subsidized transportation no matter what it costs. That’s not how it works and as a taxpayer, that attitude makes me sick. It’s an option for people to use, but it can go away at some point and then you will have to find an alternative.

    Most people were respectful. There was one jerk shouting from the back and being rude. I thought Jean Foleta did a very good job listening to all the questions and comments. I thought the lady from light rail was a bit scary. I thought the police officer did his best, but he didn’t do anything to ease the fears of people there that light rail would be safer. Only one person rides light rail and likes it. Everyone else said they won’t ride it. Which brings me to my next point of why bother bringing light rail here if people are not going to ride it? It will bring the transients and garbage into Elk Grove. Elk Grove people are not going to ride it because it will take too long. So who will it benefit? I think that is something that needs to be looked at very hard. It sounds great to say “bring it here”, but at what cost and will people use it?

    I think you’re right that riders have been spoiled by E-Tran. I personally really do like E-Tran as it is only a 10 minute walk from my house and 10 more minutes of walking to my office downtown. That said, I am not happy with how entitled some people felt about the bus service. We really do not have a “right” to a good public transportation system, as much as we may wish we had that “right”. My problem with this whole proposal is not about having curbside service but more about wanting to have an option besides light rail. I’m a small female, an easy target on the “Fright Rail” as someone called it. I feel safe on the bus because I know a lot of fellow passengers and the driver is right there. We all kind of look out for each other. However, sadly, we are at the mercy of the City Council to make their decision.
    The RT lady is a joke, she was horrible at the first workshop too. Ms. Foletta did a good job in my eyes. She was courteous and did her best. I know some people tried to rope her into committing to an alternate proposal but I respect her honesty of saying she couldn’t do that. Lt. Leong, while a nice man, did nothing to make me feel safer.
    The thought of Elk Grove having light rail deeper into the city is worrisome to me. I recall attending the Elk Grove Citizen’s Academy a few years ago (Great program btw, I encourage people to participate) and the gang unit officers said they were preparing for light rail coming to CRC. Why in the heck would we want something that would probably cause more crime and, like Doc said, will bring transients and garbage here?

  • #276797

    BicylingGuy
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    @aggies49 108604 wrote:

    Lt. Leong, while a nice man, did nothing to make me feel safer.

    I’ve never ridden light rail, so sometimes I wonder if the safety issue is overblown. But Lt. Leong’s admission that he has felt concern for his own safety at times, even while carrying a gun, just left me more hesitant.

  • #276616

    EGL Admin
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    @bicylingguy 108608 wrote:

    I’ve never ridden light rail, so sometimes I wonder if the safety issue is overblown. But Lt. Leong’s admission that he has felt concern for his own safety at times, even while carrying a gun, just left me more hesitant.

    His comments surprised me. He said that when he is in plain clothes, even he felt a little intimidated, then he added, but I have a gun and the audience kind of groaned. I was thinking you’re not helping us, you’re hurting us. They do have “security”, but it’s not armed security. They aren’t cops. They have limited options. On the trains you can’t go between the different cars. So if there are 4 cars on the train and one officer, not much he can do if the issues are on the other 3 cars.

  • #276658

    cme5
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    Which brings me to my next point of why bother bringing light rail here if people are not going to ride it? It will bring the transients and garbage into Elk Grove.

    You don’t know that people won’t ride it. Light Rail has been opposed each time it expanded. And each time it did expand, Armageddon didn’t happen. In fact, in most cases ridership exceeded expectations, most recently on the Folsom extension. RT had to add extra trains to accommodate the increased ridership. I would expect Elk Grove, when expanded, to be similar. CRC is still a commute for most in Elk Grove so taking the bus or driving is a better option. So Light Rail isn’t the best option, at this time.

    When I worked DT, admittedly its been a while, I tried the car, buses (first RT then switched to the light green prison buses) and light rail. Light rail is by far the fastest and most convenient (if you don’t have to commute to it). Buses sit in traffic and don’t run as frequently. You are a slave to their schedule. Light rail doesn’t stop for traffic, traffic stops for it, and it runs every half hour during commute periods. I have never felt unsafe on light rail, maybe its a guy thing, but my teenage daughter also rode it frequently and never feared for her safety, but since the perception is there, RT needs to work on it.

    I can’t wait for the next leg of RT in Elk Grove. The stop will be walking distance to my house. I can’t believe that light rail works every where but not Elk Grove.

  • #276617

    EGL Admin
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    You don’t know that people won’t ride it. Light Rail has been opposed each time it expanded. And each time it did expand, Armageddon didn’t happen. In fact, in most cases ridership exceeded expectations, most recently on the Folsom extension. RT had to add extra trains to accommodate the increased ridership. I would expect Elk Grove, when expanded, to be similar. CRC is still a commute for most in Elk Grove so taking the bus or driving is a better option. So Light Rail isn’t the best option, at this time.

    Expanding it to South Sac was not really opposed. Expanding it past that ghetto, and yes meadowview is a ghetto, into Elk Grove is very different. Safety is a huge issues and RT can’t fix that unless they put an armed cop on every train. That’s not going to happen. Watch the video if you want. The commuters in Elk Grove don’t want light rail. if they don’t, who is going to use it? I think most of them will drive. If people don’t want to use it from CRC, why use it from Elk Grove when it’s another 10 minute trip likely to get to CRC?

    I can’t wait for the next leg of RT in Elk Grove. The stop will be walking distance to my house. I can’t believe that light rail works every where but not Elk Grove.

    You may not even be alive when that happens. It’s not happening anytime in the next 15 years I’ll bet. They want to do the airport first and that isn’t happening for a long time. it’s good politics to say “we want to bring light rail here….” Mayor Davis will be far out of office if and when that ever happens.

  • #276659

    cme5
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    The commuters in Elk Grove don’t want light rail. if they don’t, who is going to use it? I

    Based on what, vocal opponents at the council meeting looking to abolish the buses? Small sample. I am guessing many of the State Workers and others working downtown will ride light rail. Elk Grove has a lot of State workers.

    Light rail is NOT intended to take the place of cars, or buses for that matter, but to offer more choices and a more efficient way of transporting people. I totally understand that there are people that won’t ride it – good for them.

    You may not even be alive when that happens. It’s not happening anytime in the next 15 years

    You may be right, but I hope not.

  • #276708

    gearshark23
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    Sorry you’re wrong. EVERY single person that I have been on the bus with the past 2 weeks have said they will not take light rail, they will drive.

    I ride 3 different buses in the PM and 2 in the AM. This has been the topic for a while, just overhearing people talk about it.

  • #276618

    EGL Admin
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    @cme5 108618 wrote:

    The commuters in Elk Grove don’t want light rail. if they don’t, who is going to use it? I

    Based on what, vocal opponents at the council meeting looking to abolish the buses? Small sample. I am guessing many of the State Workers and others working downtown will ride light rail. Elk Grove has a lot of State workers.

    Light rail is NOT intended to take the place of cars, or buses for that matter, but to offer more choices and a more efficient way of transporting people. I totally understand that there are people that won’t ride it – good for them.

    You may not even be alive when that happens. It’s not happening anytime in the next 15 years

    You may be right, but I hope not.

    These were all commuters who use the bus now. One person said they might use light rail. Everyone else said no, they won’t use it. The main point of light rail is commuters. Not the mid day and weekend people who want to waste their time on train instead of driving. It’s a small sample, but the sample was overwhelmingly against light rail. Why would any of them take light rail? It takes longer and is less convenient?

  • #276660

    cme5
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    Still small sample. Again, light rail has succeeded. The Folsom line is a success. And it has to go through Rancho Cordova.

    The track record of light rail in other locations and cities is a much better barometer of how it will fair in Elk Grove, rather than the person asking people on the bus or the vocal critics attending meetings. Elk Grove is not some unique phenomenon.

    I agree that RT has to work on the safety perception.

  • #276670

    tomwaltman
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    I just finished looking a the RT “security” meeting agendas and the yelp reviews of RT. Anyone who thinks RT doesn’t have major security issues is smoking dope or a shill for RT. Even RT knows it has significant issues. AND THEY DON’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. always some roadblock or other issue that keeps them from acting. I have only been on RT a few times, but I will never do it again, as long as I have the ability to ride a bike, row a canoe, or drag my nearly lifeless body down the streets to my destination. Having lived in downtown Sac for many years, I have had to fight the battles down there, and RT was always more a part of the problem than any solution. It appears it has only gotten worse. Good luck to those who have to deal with them. Remember who on the City Council votes for this change at election time.

  • #276798

    BicylingGuy
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    The issue for me is that the proposal WOULD make light rail take the place of buses. I personally don’t see myself being bused or driving to CRC and taking light rail. Even my preference for bicycling is challenged because bicycling down Calvine across Highway 99 to get to CRC seems particularly dangerous.

  • #276619

    EGL Admin
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    Were those people were riding commuter buses? Again if commuters aren’t interested then who will ride it? They estimate that 1000 people ride E tran a day. That’s 1000 each way. The drivers and others were trying to say it’s more than that, but I think they were counting both trips as a unique person. There was over 100 there last night. That’s 10%. Of the over 100, one said something positive, but still said he liked E tran better. When 99% of a sampling of 10% of the riders says that they don’t want light rail, I am thinking that is a pretty good sampling. And they all know more people that weren’t there that agree with them. One lady had a petition with over 300 signatures. Still too small a sampling.

    As bad as Rancho is, I think Meadowview is much worse. And when you say it has succeeded, in what way? It doesn’t even come close to paying for itself. All public transportation is heavily subsidized. By all accounts E Tran is a success yet only pays for 25% of the cost.

  • #276709

    gearshark23
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    @cme5 108626 wrote:

    Still small sample. Again, light rail has succeeded. The Folsom line is a success. And it has to go through Rancho Cordova.

    The track record of light rail in other locations and cities is a much better barometer of how it will fair in Elk Grove, rather than the person asking people on the bus or the vocal critics attending meetings. Elk Grove is not some unique phenomenon.

    I agree that RT has to work on the safety perception.

    Folsom line is a success because Folsom never had busses coming out of Folsom in the first place to downtown Sacramento. Of course that line will have more success, when all those people had were vehicles to drive to work before light rail. The only bus coming from that way is EDH… I believe RT has some busses that go to Hazel. I may be wrong on that though.

    Meadoview is worst then Rancho Cordova, trust me I know this from first hand experience.

    I agree with you that RT needs to work on the safety though.

  • #276620

    EGL Admin
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    @tomwaltman 108627 wrote:

    I just finished looking a the RT “security” meeting agendas and the yelp reviews of RT. Anyone who thinks RT doesn’t have major security issues is smoking dope or a shill for RT. Even RT knows it has significant issues. AND THEY DON’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. always some roadblock or other issue that keeps them from acting. I have only been on RT a few times, but I will never do it again, as long as I have the ability to ride a bike, row a canoe, or drag my nearly lifeless body down the streets to my destination. Having lived in downtown Sac for many years, I have had to fight the battles down there, and RT was always more a part of the problem than any solution. It appears it has only gotten worse. Good luck to those who have to deal with them. Remember who on the City Council votes for this change at election time.

    The officer admitted they have problems and admitted they don’t have the budget to solve them. They have 28 armed officers for 7 days a week. That’s 4 a day. He said they have plainclothes officers riding too. One lady asked, how many are women? He said one. The women are the ones who don’t feel safe. They feel very safe on the commuter buses because they know everyone and everyone pays. On light rail, there are a lot of people who jump on and jump off. Those are the problem ones.

  • #276621

    EGL Admin
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    @gearshark23 108630 wrote:

    Folsom line is a success because Folsom never had busses coming out of Folsom in the first place to downtown Sacramento. Of course that line will have more success, when all those people had were vehicles to drive to work before light rail. The only bus coming from that way is EDH… I believe RT has some busses that go to Hazel. I may be wrong on that though.

    That’s the key. If Folsom didn’t have public transportation, I could see where it would be more successful for them. I was frankly surprised at the reaction to this proposal. To me it seemed like a no brainer. LR comes to CRC, haver the buses shuttle people to LR. No more buses going downtown. I think the city thought that too. I had no idea the loyalty there was to E Tran and how much people who commute don’t want light rail. Many of them have tried light rail and didn’t like it.

  • #276710

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 108631 wrote:

    The officer admitted they have problems and admitted they don’t have the budget to solve them. They have 28 armed officers for 7 days a week. That’s 4 a day. He said they have plainclothes officers riding too. One lady asked, how many are women? He said one. The women are the ones who don’t feel safe. They feel very safe on the commuter buses because they know everyone and everyone pays. On light rail, there are a lot of people who jump on and jump off. Those are the problem ones.

    Yup, there also isn’t a way to monitor who comes and goes on the light rail, I can’t even remember if the light rail has cameras. I’m pretty sure they do. I took it a long time ago and you wouldn’t believe how many drunk people causing problems were on there.

  • #276661

    cme5
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    Folsom had, and stil has, public transit with buses. They ran buses to DT Sac like every other city. Elk Grove is not some world wide anomaly where rail wont work as a means of mass transit. It is the most efficient form of transportation. If and when it gets here, people will use it, just like every other city.

  • #276622

    EGL Admin
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    @cme5 108660 wrote:

    It is the most efficient form of transportation.

    Most efficient? Not sure how you can make that claim. it takes longer than a bus. In some cases maybe longer than a car.

    If and when it gets here, people will use it, just like every other city.

    People will use it. It’s not worth the cost to build it or operate it though. What is it like, $500 million to bring it to Elk Grove, for 2-3 miles? That’s a waste of money.

  • #276662

    cme5
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    Most efficient? Not sure how you can make that claim. it takes longer than a bus. In some cases maybe longer than a car.

    I can make that claim because a train can carry more people than a bus, the same way a bus carries more people than a car. And, the train is faster in a congested commute. The train doesn’t stop for traffic, traffic stops for it.

    People will use it. It’s not worth the cost to build it or operate it though. What is it like, $500 million to bring it to Elk Grove, for 2-3 miles? That’s a waste of money.

    Your opinion. Yes, it is expensive to build a rail system. However, you are building them for a long run, hopefully. A highway also costs lots of money to build. The projected growth of Elk Grove and South County will greatly impact Hwy 99 and 5. They both have limited capacity. We will need multiple transportation modes to accommodate the growth.

  • #276671

    tomwaltman
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    cme5, do you know of a public transit system that does not rely on governmental subsidies to operate? I actually believe in public transit, but I do so with full knowledge that they don’t ever pay for themselves. I prefer to calculate the ROI using the soft numbers rather than the construction and operating costs alone. I am willing to consider both as I determine the value. That said, it is still an ROI calculation for me, and if the numbers don’t pencil out, even using a little bit of squishy math to account for lower infrastructure maintenance cost and other things that public transit can effect.

  • #276663

    cme5
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    No, I don’t. The roads rely on subsidies as well. The gas tax doesn’t pay for it all. There are indirect costs associated with road travel, and indirect benefits from rail. While many buses are using CNG, many still use diesel. Rail uses electricity. Needless to say oil and gas are finite resources. Electricity can be produced a number of different ways.

  • #276623

    EGL Admin
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    Light rail is the perfect example of the government at work. Overpriced, cram people together, lack of security. Actually for me, light would be great because then that’s more cars off the road for me use it.

  • #276711

    gearshark23
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    @cme5 108660 wrote:

    Folsom had, and stil has, public transit with buses. They ran buses to DT Sac like every other city. Elk Grove is not some world wide anomaly where rail wont work as a means of mass transit. It is the most efficient form of transportation. If and when it gets here, people will use it, just like every other city.

    Folsom has in city busses. I don’t believe they came to Downtown Sacramento. Unless that was 15+ years ago. Light Rail isn’t the most efficient and people that take E-tran to work right now will not use it. Guranteed. The people who currently live in EG and go to the Meadowview light rail will use it, that’s about it.

  • #276746

    Bainc
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    I’m sure there will be some increase in overall public transportation ridership with the extension to CRC. Remember not everybody is a downtown commuter. There will be many college students who will travel to/from both CRC and Sac City. I still think a good number of current E-tran riders on the east side could use Lt Rail except they’ll just drive to the station instead of riding E-tran for 3 miles and then transfer. I still think some type of hybrid plan is best with some routes going to CRC and others going downtown. Why are they proposing an all or nothing plan?

  • #276624

    EGL Admin
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    I think no one really knows what’s going to happen once light rail service starts at CRC. I don’t think they will keep E tran service the same as it is now. They will need to run some buses to CRC and I don’t think they keep the same bus routes going to downtown. Some people are going to be upset no matter what. It’s going to be a tough decision. They can’t physically add routes because they don’t have the buses. Jean Foleta said they have something like an 8% reserve bus rate. Meaning that if one breaks down they don’t have enough to extra buses. She said most places have 20% in reserves.

    She did explain the $320 mentioned in the survey. She said that is how much it actually costs to transport each passenger for the month. They weren’t asking people to pay that.

    There’s going to have to be some give and take. E tran riders can’t expect to keep their exact same service and have it subsidized by 75%. I think that’s where the city was thinking that most should use light rail. If you’re only 25% of the cost you don’t really get a lot of day in the matter.

    One argument I heard that didn’t really make much sense was some people were saying if people stop using e tran and either drive or carpool then E tran gets less money. True but it’s already losing money. If they need to remove some routes and use less buses that going to save the city money. Let’s just say it costs $4 million to operate E tran. That means the city is paying $3 million. Let’s say ridership is cut in half. Then the city only pays $1.5 million. It’s not like e tran is making money and having less riders makes it less profitable. That was kind of a fallacy in the argument made by E tran riders at the meeting.

  • #276783

    Aggies49
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    @bainc 108951 wrote:

    I’m sure there will be some increase in overall public transportation ridership with the extension to CRC. Remember not everybody is a downtown commuter. There will be many college students who will travel to/from both CRC and Sac City. I still think a good number of current E-tran riders on the east side could use Lt Rail except they’ll just drive to the station instead of riding E-tran for 3 miles and then transfer. I still think some type of hybrid plan is best with some routes going to CRC and others going downtown. Why are they proposing an all or nothing plan?

    I agree with your thoughts about the hybrid plan. I was hoping that the City would at least give commuters an option to still go downtown on the bus. I don’t mind if some buses go to light rail but I would hope some routes would still go downtown. Word on the buses is that it’s a done deal and the City will accept this new plan. I just wish the city had at least attempted a hybrid plan. Maybe they figure they can force people onto the trains by eliminating options.

  • #276625

    EGL Admin
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    I think it was a done deal until these two meetings. I don’t think they expected the amount of complaints. Guess we will see. If they stick with their original plan then they will be in for a lot of criticism for not listening to the commuters. I think some sort of hybrid plan is more likely.

  • #276784

    Aggies49
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    @EGL Admin 108957 wrote:

    I think it was a done deal until these two meetings. I don’t think they expected the amount of complaints. Guess we will see. If they stick with their original plan then they will be in for a lot of criticism for not listening to the commuters. I think some sort of hybrid plan is more likely.

    I hope you are right. However, I believe the commuters need to be open if a reasonable hybrid plan is created. Like you said, a lot of commuters want transit at their doorstep and that’s just not feasible. Changes have to be made.

  • #276712

    gearshark23
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    I am ok with a Hybrid plan.

  • #276799

    BicylingGuy
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    Are there any current light rail commuters following this thread who can tell me if there is room for bikes during commute hours?

  • #276713

    gearshark23
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    @bicylingguy 109465 wrote:

    Are there any current light rail commuters following this thread who can tell me if there is room for bikes during commute hours?

    Talked to a co worker who takes light rail, he said there is room when he goes home at 5.

  • #276747

    Bainc
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    Two bikes allowed at the front and rear of each car except the front of the front car. So a 4 car train has room for 14 bikes. They can get full depending on what stop you’re getting on at but generally it’s not a problem. With the extension to CRC and proposed Etran changes there might be a glut of bikes already onboard by the time the train reaches Meadowview or Florin. I see a lot of bikes on the etran routes I’ve taken.

  • #276785

    Aggies49
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    I saw this on the E-Tran site today:

    http://www.elkgrovecity.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_109585/File/Departments/eTran/05-27-15%20E-Tran%20Service%20Modifications.pdf

    CITY OF ELK GROVE – CITY COUNCIL
    NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING
    TO CONSIDER E-TRAN TRANSIT SERVICE MODIFICATIONS
    THAT WOULD BECOME EFFECTIVE SEPTEMBER 2015
    NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN, that on May 27, 2015, at 6:00 p.m., or as soon thereafter as the
    matter may be heard, the City Council of the City of Elk Grove will hold a Public Hearing at the
    Elk Grove City Hall, 8400 Laguna Palms Way, Elk Grove to consider e-tran transit service
    modifications that, if adopted, are anticipated to become effective September 2015.
    Further information regarding the service modifications may be obtained by contacting the City of
    Elk Grove, Transit Division, at (916) 687-3009, on-line at http://www.e-tran.org, and upon release
    of the May 27, 2015 City Council Agenda, which will be available on the City’s website at
    http://www.elkgrovecity.org no later than Friday, May 22, 2015 at 5:00 p.m.
    The City of Elk Grove encourages interested parties to attend public meetings and comment on
    the issues being discussed. If you wish to provide testimony and are unable to attend the
    meeting, written comments that are delivered to the City Clerk’s office prior to the time of the
    hearing will be made a part of the public record.
    Translation services can be made available upon request that is provided to the City at least 72
    hours prior to the scheduled hearing date and time.
    NOTICE REGARDING CHALLENGES TO DECISIONS
    Pursuant to all applicable laws and regulations, if you wish to challenge in court any of the above
    decisions (regarding planning, zoning and/or environmental decisions), you may be limited to
    raising only those issues you or someone else raised at the public hearing(s) described in this
    notice/agenda, or in written correspondence delivered to the city at, or prior to, this public hearing.
    ADA COMPLIANCE STATEMENT
    In compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act, if you need special assistance to participate
    in this meeting, please contact the Office of the City Clerk at (916) 478-3635. Notification 48 hours
    prior to the meeting

  • #276714

    gearshark23
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    Another meeting? This better not be the same BS as last time.

  • #276626

    EGL Admin
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    No, this one is the Elk Grove city council. This is one you want to go to for sure. They may make a decision. I would write the council a letter or email about this make your feelings known again.

  • #276715

    gearshark23
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    Ok, thanks for clearing it up.

  • #276627

    EGL Admin
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    I am sure the council members will be looking over the staff reports between then and now. I would let them know now.

  • #276748

    Bainc
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    Yep, this is the meeting where the decision is made. Expect to be there for a few hours. I’m certain there will be a lot of public comment.

  • #276786

    Aggies49
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    Just posted on the City Council Agenda. 98% of people involved do not want the changes.
    http://www.elkgrovecity.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_109585/File/cityclerk/citycouncil/2015/attachments/05-27-15_9.1.pdf

  • #276749

    Bainc
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    Wow that’s overwhelming one sided. Very disappointed in the options given in the staff report. I’ll summarize my interpretation below.

    1) Terminate all commuter trips at LR
    2) Reduce # of commuter trips to make cost savings of 1 or 2 routes required by some grant funding
    3) Increase fares by $1.75 each way

    No discussion of modifying the commuter routes to better serve the southern part of the city. IMO those commuters will not be driving or taking E-tran all the way to CRC. If #1 is implemented then watch fare box recovery plummet. Those that want to ride LR will simply drive to CRC and avoid E-tran altogether. Similar issues with #3, ridership will plummet with fares at $4/each way. The staff report assumes ridership remains the same and thus will increase revenue. Typical government thinking completely ignoring elasticity of demand.

    I’m curious what others think. I’ll be at the council meeting on Wed to offer my comments and see what happens. I’ll guess they’ll go with option #2 or some version of it.

  • #276628

    EGL Admin
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    I don’t think the city is obligated to just keep it the same because 1000 people out of 160,000 want it that way. People are saying they won’t use light rail etc but I’ll bet many will. They haven’t been driving all this time and have been using subsidized transportation, they aren’t all the sudden going to start driving and then have to pay for parking and gas and sit in traffic. It’s going to requires sacrifice. Otherwise what’s the point of light rail? And then really no sense wasting money bringing it to Elk Grove.

  • #276629

    EGL Admin
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    Since its being subsidized, isn’t it all relative if ridership drops? For example if it’s costing $3 to make to $1, we are still losing $2. If ridership falls then you cut back on the services. Or cut out all the buses and save even more. I went to the second meeting and there was definitely an air of entitlement with the speakers.

  • #276750

    Bainc
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    I’m in favor of changes for sure but I don’t see any thinking outside the box. The routes regardless of terminating at CRC or Downtown are basically the same. Why not throw out the existing routes and start over with new routes that make sense given LR is close?

  • #276751

    Bainc
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    @EGL Admin 112657 wrote:

    Since its being subsidized, isn’t it all relative if ridership drops? For example if it’s costing $3 to make to $1, we are still losing $2. If ridership falls then you cut back on the services. Or cut out all the buses and save even more. I went to the second meeting and there was definitely an air of entitlement with the speakers.

    If the buses are running empty then the fare box recovery is less and the overall costs go up until they cut service. I just laugh when I see in the staff report that doubling the fare will generate X in additional revenue yet they don’t consider ridership will fall with higher prices and thus will not generate the extra revenue anticipated.

  • #276630

    EGL Admin
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    They are probably counting on people not wanting to drive and park. If you factor those two in, then it will still be cheaper to take public transit. How much does parking cost per month downtown? Add in gas and wear and tear on your car and I think even with a raise in fares it is still a good deal.

  • #276752

    Bainc
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    If they raise fares too much people will just buy RT monthly passes and drive to CRC. Not sure the details of how EG receives compensation if people ride with RT passes instead of Etran passes.

    I still find it crazy that 98% of those surveyed didn’t support the changes. You can’t get 98% of people to agree the sky is blue. 🙂

  • #276631

    EGL Admin
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    That’s true on the 98%.

    At the meeting I went to, the people there were adamant they would not take light rail. I am sure many eventually will and probably a lot will drive to CRC. That’s what I would do. You can get there faster in a car.

  • #276787

    Aggies49
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    Well I just wrote another e-mail to the City Council regarding these options. Option #3 sounds like a step in the right direction but I feel they could make cuts on local routes first before eliminating so many commuter routes. I think they are smart to consider eliminating some routes with low ridership. That part, I agree with. I’m trying not to be like the entitled folks that Doc mentioned (I agree that many were too entitled). Like BainC stated, I too don’t see any thinking outside of the box which is disappointing. I guess I was blindly hoping that with a 98% response against the proposed changed, the City would step up and be serious about figuring out a reasonable plan.

  • #276632

    EGL Admin
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    I think the city is stuck between a rock and hard place on this. If they continue with how things have been, then they are saying no sense bringing light rail to Elk Grove because it’s inefficient and takes longer. Some in the city want light rail to come down to Elk Grove. This discussion has opened my eyes to the idea that it’s not really worth it to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to extend it a few miles so a small percentage of people can use it. I think it’s more efficient to have bus service to the light rail station.

  • #276716

    gearshark23
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    To answer Doc’s question about parking downtown.

    It depends, if your agency has a parking garage. CalPERS parking is around 60-70 a month, Education is 70 a month. State Controller’s Office is $120 a month.

    If you have to park at a lot that’s not for your “agency” (there’s an actual name for it, I’m just too tired to think of it) it ranges from 90-120.

    Daily parking you will pay $6 to $9 a day.

  • #276633

    EGL Admin
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    So basically if they raise the fees it’s still cheaper then driving and parking. Parking will also not be free at CRC. I think it will possibly $1-2 a day. You’re likely going to pay more no matter what happens.

    I just remember the one lady at the meting saying right now the bus picks her up across the street from her house and drops her off across the street from her work. Light rail would be 6 blocks away. Well heck yeah that’s a sweet deal I don’t blame her for being upset. She wanted to know what the city was going to do to make sure she was safe walking her 6 blocks. Umm you’re adult, figure it out? This isn’t school where the district is responsible for you. That made me mad as a taxpayer. You want door to door service?

  • #276753

    Bainc
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    Or you park further away, walk, and it’s free. I refuse to pay for parking but I’m in the minority.

  • #276717

    gearshark23
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    For me it would be cheaper to drive to work.

    I know currently at the meadowview station it’s $15 a month for a parking pass, I believe.

    When I went to Sac City it was $1.00 a day now it’s increased to $2.00 a day.

    E-tran get’s most of their money from commuters. Because we all know in the summer when school is out hardly anyone takes the bus.

    LOL at the lady, she must be a CalPERS employee…. If light rail was to take over they would have to walk 6 blocks to get to work, understandable, but I’m laughing at how to make it safe for her to walk…. It’s called watch your surroundings, and have common sense, carry pepper spray if need be.

  • #276718

    gearshark23
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    @bainc 112774 wrote:

    Or you park further away, walk, and it’s free. I refuse to pay for parking but I’m in the minority.

    Park between 3rd-5th at W and X free parking… It’s just a walk depending on where you’re located. That’s what I usually do when I drive into work.

  • #276634

    EGL Admin
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    @gearshark23 112776 wrote:

    LOL at the lady, she must be a CalPERS employee…. If light rail was to take over they would have to walk 6 blocks to get to work, understandable, but I’m laughing at how to make it safe for her to walk…. It’s called watch your surroundings, and have common sense, carry pepper spray if need be.

    I really couldn’t believe it. She was asking the City rep at the meeting what the city was going to do about it and the rep didn’t really know what to say other than the city will look into it. I didn’t understand what she wanted them do? Have a police car there to take her to her work?

    E-tran get’s most of their money from commuters. Because we all know in the summer when school is out hardly anyone takes the bus.

    Do you mean of the faire they receive or in general? Only 25% of the cost of E Tran comes from the faire that commuters pay. The rest is subsidized in some manner by the city or through grant money.

  • #276719

    gearshark23
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    @EGL Admin 112784 wrote:

    I really couldn’t believe it. She was asking the City rep at the meeting what the city was going to do about it and the rep didn’t really know what to say other than the city will look into it. I didn’t understand what she wanted them do? Have a police car there to take her to her work?

    Do you mean of the faire they receive or in general? Only 25% of the cost of E Tran comes from the faire that commuters pay. The rest is subsidized in some manner by the city or through grant money.

    I literally laughed out loud about the lady again.

    I meant the faire they receive. The state pays $65 for each commuter, then we make up the difference. But how does it work for the High School students? Does their ID card get them on the bus for free?

  • #276635

    EGL Admin
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    I don’t think kids ride free.

    So let me get this straight. The state pays $65 a month for state workers to ride the bus and some are complaining about paying a little more to ride the bus? I didn’t realize the state was also paying you to ride the bus. Now I really don’t feel bad if they raise the fare. 🙂

  • #276788

    Aggies49
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    I must admit, I also laughed about how absurd that woman was. This isn’t your own private taxi service. If your biggest gripe is that you don’t have to door to door service, I can’t really side with you. I walk several blocks to my office and I stay safe by being fully aware of my surroundings.

    As someone who gets the $65 discount, I have no problem with a reasonable fare increase, namely because the State does subsidize my fare. If they combine a reasonable fare increase with some reasonable route cuts, I am on board.

  • #276636

    EGL Admin
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    @aggies49 112804 wrote:

    I must admit, I also laughed about how absurd that woman was. This isn’t your own private taxi service. If your biggest gripe is that you don’t have to door to door service, I can’t really side with you. I walk several blocks to my office and I stay safe by being fully aware of my surroundings.

    As someone who gets the $65 discount, I have no problem with a reasonable fare increase, namely because the State does subsidize my fare. If they combine a reasonable fare increase with some reasonable route cuts, I am on board.

    Now that is a completely reasonable response and way to look at things. I really do hope that the city can find a solution that works for everyone as best it can.

    This isn’t your own private taxi service. If your biggest gripe is that you don’t have to door to door service, I can’t really side with you.

    Bingo! Since I was recording it at the time I had to be careful and not say anything, but I was thinking some stuff though. She felt like she was entitled to door to door service.

  • #276754

    Bainc
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    Mass transit should be for the masses. It won’t work for everybody and door to door service isn’t the goal. Being efficient and getting the most people off the road for the dollar should be the goal.

  • #276720

    gearshark23
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    Yes, Doc. The state pays $65 towards our bus pass, which makes state workers come out of pocket $35. I’m all for an increase so I don’t have to take light rail.

    They lady is funny, someone should have told her well you know Uber is out there now, they come directly to your door and take you to anywhere you like….

    Granted the bus drops me off in front of my building, but sometimes I get off before so I can walk a little same thing goes for when going home… The lady is just lazy..

  • #276721

    gearshark23
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    Ok, now that I’ve looked through the whole thing. This isn’t public yet is it?

    Seriously, E-tran couldn’t black out addresses of the commuters and phone numbers. This is something that should not be going public if it already is not public…

  • #276637

    EGL Admin
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    I believe the document is public since we could access it.

  • #276722

    gearshark23
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    I called Jean the Transit manager to let her know about the petitions that have addresses. Mine is not on there but Co-workers addresses are. She didn’t answer.

  • #276789

    Aggies49
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    @gearshark23 112814 wrote:

    Ok, now that I’ve looked through the whole thing. This isn’t public yet is it?

    Seriously, E-tran couldn’t black out addresses of the commuters and phone numbers. This is something that should not be going public if it already is not public…

    I felt the same way…

  • #276723

    gearshark23
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    Is anyone going tonight?

    I really wish I could, but we have a dinner to attend tonight.

  • #276790

    Aggies49
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    I don’t think I will be able to make it due to something that came up.
    Doc, will you be there recording it?

  • #276638

    EGL Admin
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    Not sure yet. I wasn’t planning on going but I might go.

  • #276755

    Bainc
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    Gearshark ~ Think about attending late after your dinner. I expect the public comment period could last an hour or two based on the outrage at the public outreach meetings. Plus there are other matters on the agenda prior to this. Probably won’t start this item until 7 pm and not finished until at least 9 pm. Just a hunch from attending prior council meetings. I’ll be there but I’m not coming until around 7 pm.

    You can also stream live from the city’s website and see where they are in the agenda before coming down.

  • #276791

    Aggies49
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    Do you think there will be a lot of people in attendance? I don’t think a lot of people know about the meeting tonight.

  • #276639

    EGL Admin
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    I think there will be quite a few people there. I think the e tran riders should know about it.

    Bainc, are the meetings streamed live?

  • #276640

    EGL Admin
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    Just checked with city. They are streaming it live. I’ll find the link for it and post it.

  • #276756

    Bainc
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    Always streamed live. I usually watch from home unless there’s something I feel the need to comment on. Most of the people who attended the workshops understood the decision would be made by the council at one of the meetings in May. Hopefully they pay enough attention to know that meeting is tonight.

  • #276641

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  • #276757

    Bainc
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    7:25 and the Etran changes are just started to be discussed. I’m watching online and will be heading down now. Hopefully there’s enough public comment to fill the time for me to make it down.

  • #276792

    Aggies49
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    I heard the turn out wasn’t very large

  • #276758

    Bainc
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    About 15 people spoke. Nobody in favor. I think the Council will punt.

  • #276793

    Aggies49
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    @bainc 112857 wrote:

    About 15 people spoke. Nobody in favor. I think the Council will punt.

    Hope you are right!

  • #276759

    Bainc
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    They punted. Will consider again once a comprehensive analysis is completed.

    I still think they need to make some changes including routing some commuter buses to Light Rail or simply having those riders drive to LR. Currently I see many commuters drive to Lowes and park-in-ride. If they are driving there already why not drive to CRC?

  • #276794

    Aggies49
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    @bainc 112860 wrote:

    They punted. Will consider again once a comprehensive analysis is completed.

    I still think they need to make some changes including routing some commuter buses to Light Rail or simply having those riders drive to LR. Currently I see many commuters drive to Lowes and park-in-ride. If they are driving there already why not drive to CRC?

    This is good news. Hopefully they will look into making reasonable and more thought out changes. Your idea of having some buses go to light rail isn’t a bad idea. They just need to find the right balance while accepting that people are still going to be mad, no matter what (such as the door to door lady). However, to your point of driving to CRC, I think a lot of people don’t want to fight with the CRC students for parking and have to pay to park at that station.
    Thank you for the update!

  • #276760

    Bainc
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    Just thinking if those who already drive to Lowe’s. That’s right across the freeway from CRC for some it could be even closer. Paying to park is an issue but they have a nice new garage right at the station. It’s not about rejecting Light Rail but being smart about getting the most people moved for the money with similar level of service.

  • #276724

    gearshark23
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    No one wants to deal with the traffic at CRC.

    CRC parking lot is worst then Lowe’s parking lot.

  • #276642

    EGL Admin
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    So if you park at Lowe’s, how do you get to the light rail station? Is there is a bus?

  • #276761

    Bainc
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    Currently you can park at Lowe’s and get on the bus to downtown. I’d expect if the bus was no longer going downtown but to CRC those that will continue to take public transit will not drive to Lowe’s wait for the bus, take the bus one mile to CRC, then wait for the train transfer. They’ll drive to CRC instead especially since Councilman Detrick is suggesting adding $100/mo to Etran fares. Paying for parking at CRC and buying a RT pass will be much cheaper and faster.

  • #276643

    EGL Admin
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    Edward Ortiz from the Sac Bee contacted me this morning. He is writing a story on E Tran and RT. He would like to hear from people who have used light rail and get your impressions of it. He needs to hear from you today. His number is 321-1071. Tell him Doc Souza with Elk Grove Laguna Forums sent you.

  • #276795

    Aggies49
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    Faced with intense opposition from residents, Elk Grove has backed off a proposed plan to scrap its direct bus service to downtown Sacramento and instead give commuters a lift to light rail.

    Elk Grove City Council members Wednesday evening opted to maintain the city’s e-tran bus service, while reserving the possibility of future bus line cuts once Sacramento Regional Transit opens its 4.3-mile Blue Line extension in September. The line will end at Cosumnes River College.

    Cutting bus service would have saved the city $434,432, according to city staff.

    Elk Grove residents were vocal in their opposition to scuttling direct bus service. More than 450 people filed public comments in response to the proposed change – with 98 percent saying that would not consider taking light rail for their commute.

    On Wednesday evening, the council heard from nine residents who opposed the change. They cited concerns about crime on trains and the time that taking the train would add to their commutes.

    Resident Jonathan Meltzer attended Wednesday’s meeting to weigh in on behalf of his adult daughter, who rides the e-tran bus into Sacramento. “I would not let my adult daughter ride light rail,” he said. “There is a question about security at stations. There have been far too many incidents on light rail where people have been hassled or lost possessions.”

    Elk Grove Mayor Gary Davis said light rail needs to make changes to appeal to Elk Grove bus riders. “Light rail needs to get their house in order around ensuring that it is clean, safe and secure,” Davis said. “We’ll be ready to ride light rail when that happens.”

    RT has weathered similar criticism recently from downtown Sacramento business leaders concerned about attracting Kings fans to ride the train to the arena under construction downtown. Transit agency officials have begun a yearlong series of meetings with business leaders on ways to make transit more attractive.

    RT spokeswoman Alane Masui said Thursday that the agency has added $900,000 to its budget for next year to address security issues. But she argued that the real issue in Elk Grove has little to do with safety.

    “The issue is not RT getting its house in order; the issue is about convenience for Elk Grove residents,” said Masui. “I can understand why Elk Grove commuters are vocal about keeping their one-seat ride to Sacramento.”

    Commuters cited time as another reason for their opposition.

    Elk Grove resident Mark Doty, who spoke at Wednesday’s meeting, said the idea of taking a bus to light rail for his commute to his office on Richards Boulevard was a “deal killer.”

    “I’m not opposed to light rail, per se,” Doty said. “But driving to the bus, waiting for the bus and then riding the bus 2 or 3 miles and then waiting for the train would add 25 minutes to the current commute.”

    Doty said he could ride his bike from Elk Grove to downtown in the same time it would take to commute on the bus and then the train – an hour and 20 minutes.

    RT officials have said service will be robust on the new Blue Line. Daily trains will run from 5 a.m. to midnight at 15-minute intervals until 7:30 p.m., and every 30 minutes thereafter.

    The transit agency said the train from Cosumnes River College to the 16th Street station in downtown Sacramento would take an estimated 28 minutes. From the college to Eighth and K streets, the commute is expected to take 36 minutes.

    Some Elk Grove residents have no problem riding the train to work. Eileen Mahoney lives a mile and a half from the soon-to-be-open station at Cosumnes River College. She has been riding light rail for the last 10 years.

    “I used to ride e-tran when it started up. I grew unhappy with the number of breakdowns and the sardine-can feel,” she said in an interview. “Plus, if you got on at a later stop you were standing the whole way.”

    In the 10 years she has been riding light rail into Sacramento, she said, she has sought the assistance of a train conductor only twice.

    “Most of the people on the train are commuters or work for the state or county,” she said. “We all know each other and sit in the same car. My experience has been extremely positive.”

    Councilman Davis said he supports light rail and is taking a wait-and-see approach on whether some bus lines can be eliminated once the Cosumnes light-rail station opens.

    “The key to the transition occurring – with some bus routes in Elk Grove being scaled back to light rail – is determined on RT getting their act together,” he said.

    The $270 million light-rail extension to the college campus has been touted by RT as a benefit to college students and a tool to ease traffic congestion on Interstate 5 and Highway 99.

    The area that the Blue Line seeks to serve is one of the fastest growing in Sacramento County. A recent RT study found that it would double in population by 2030 – from 82,400 to 179,100.

    Edward Ortiz:

    Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article22527069.html#storylink=cpy

  • #276644

    EGL Admin
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    Nice article. Two of our EGL members were quoted in the story. 🙂

  • #276645

    EGL Admin
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    I think it was a good move by the city council to put it back on RT’s plate. Biggest concern is safety.

  • #276796

    Aggies49
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    @EGL Admin 112939 wrote:

    I think it was a good move by the city council to put it back on RT’s plate. Biggest concern is safety.

    I agree. Hope this will put the issue aside for a while.

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