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Time to beat down the GOP….

This topic contains 69 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  bobaloons 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #172727

    EGL Admin
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    Kept the house, may have lost ground in the senate. Lost the big prize, what’s next for the GOP? I don’t think we can simply say in 4 years we will have better candidates and hope that sways voters. They need to get more of the woman and Latino vote. Gay marriage opponents lost in 4 states. As long as banning abortion is on the platform there will be an uphill battle to the female vote. I know it’s not that simple but some of us have been saying for 4 years that we need to take the social issues out of the campaign or else every election it will be the GOP’s war on women and gays.

  • #242562

    bobaloons
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    Agreed Doc…..continuing to beat the drum on social issues will not play in favor of the GOP, it just loads the Democrat cannon

  • #242542

    SteveB6509
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    Very true but I hate to tell you – it is more than taking the social issues out of the platform, it is believing it. I will not vote for a Republican if he/she talks all economics in the runup to the election with the goal of jumping to social issues after the election. For example, there is no way in Hell I will vote for Ryan. His economics are brilliant but his social agenda is not something I agree with. It is one thing to believe (as a person) in certain issues. It is another to try and impose them on the entire population.

    The Libertarian Party is looking better and better every day.

  • #242557

    Karen
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    The Republican Party needs to get a divorce from the religious right. Until then, they won’t be able to get a decent candidate through the primary process.

  • #242545

    illbnice
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    Lovely. The disdain for religion is sad.

  • #242558

    Karen
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    It’s not about disdain for religion. It’s about a political party being controlled by religion. If that’s the way they want to stay, so be it. Keep putting up candidates that are as bad as Romney just because they follow the religious platform. Just as long as they don’t wonder why they keep losing.

  • #242522

    newmom
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    It’s not disdain for religion. It’s disdain for a group’s control over the entire GOP, and how that control ends up bringing down their candidate. Many of the people who posted in this thread about taking the religious right out of the GOP identify themselves as Christians.

    What truly surprised me was the outright contempt many of my Christian friends displayed for Romney as a Mormon yesterday. These are people who usually vote Rep, but stated they would not vote for a Mormon, and then wrote many nasty things about Mormons. “Not a true Believer” “Distrustful and a liar” “Not a man of God” “We will all go to Hell” and many other horrible things. It especially surprised me given that so many Christians claim there is a war on their beliefs. Do they not see their part?

  • #242519

    LC
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    I think we’ve learned that a few outspoken extremists can cast a big pall on the party. I’m not sad to see Allen West go, other than losing a seat. He is a good man but overly contentious. The two Congressmen that spoke out about abortion resonated deeply.

    I don’t believe in pandering to minorities, but we need to show them in clear bullet points why and how the Republicans can provide a more rewarding path than continual trough feeding.

    The Democrats ran a bitter, negative campaign and it worked. Romney almost always took the high road. Call it the right thing to do, but when you’re fighting unions and entitlements you need to get down in the trenches and mud like Obama did. I think the loss was more campaign related than anything else, but that won’t be enough to hold a shrinking House in only two years. The GOP needs to get updated, and we have the young leadership to do it if we’ll let them. The tea party served a purpose in 2010 but the Democrats have appointed them as our official mouthpiece and we’ve let them do that.

    Most people here have never worked directly in the GOP party, and if you had you’d realize how incredibly conservative and dogmatic they can be. I dropped out because I couldn’t possibly enthusiastically work with them. We need to elevate younger people with some circumspection, and cast the troglodytes aside. It starts from the local grassroots and it’s our job, no one else’s. We need to be the machine, and today we’re a collection of rusty parts.

  • #242546

    illbnice
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    Either social issues are in or out of an election. Obviously, they should be in because government has a part in social issues. So…conservatives are conservative on social issues–a lot of it religion based. You can’t just have a Democrat carrying on about pro-choice and gay marriage issues and have a Republican shut his mouth. Or, you’d like to have a Republican be pro-life and anti-gay marriage, but not claim it is in the name of religion? It stands as I said it: it is sad. We are morally bankrupt and people don’t want to admit it’s because religion is being pushed out of our country.

  • #242547

    illbnice
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    I should clarify, Christianity is being pushed out of our country.

  • #242538

    kindrlindr
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    LC….
    “The Democrats ran a bitter, negative campaign and it worked. Romney almost always took the high road. Call it the right thing to do, but when you’re fighting unions and entitlements you need to get down in the trenches and mud like Obama did”

    That IMHO is why Romney lost. His unwillingness to “fight fire with fire” due to his principles was honorable, but we will now suffer because of it.

  • #242539

    kindrlindr
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    ….and I WELCOME Mr O to prove me wrong. I would love nothing more than to admit I was wrong and his vision for our nation is in our best interests.

  • #242548

    illbnice
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    @kindrlindr 69401 wrote:

    LC….
    “The Democrats ran a bitter, negative campaign and it worked. Romney almost always took the high road. Call it the right thing to do, but when you’re fighting unions and entitlements you need to get down in the trenches and mud like Obama did”

    That IMHO is why Romney lost. His unwillingness to “fight fire with fire” due to his principles was honorable, but we will now suffer because of it.

    I think it says more about our country. Why do we vote for the less honorable? I say we get what we deserve. I feel really defeated this morning and it’s more about the fall of man than Obama winning.

  • #242543

    SteveB6509
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    Some of these posts illustrate the problem with the GOP for me. The Democrats define themselves as Pro-Choice and therefore, the Republicans must define themselves as anti-abortion. If the Republican Party wants to be “The Christian Party”, just let me know and I will be more than happy to register with another party. Just don’t complain when you don’t win many elections outside Kansas.

    Yes, the United States contains a predominance (perhaps a majority) of Christians. But the last I checked, the very formation of our country was based on religious liberty and the freedom of all to practice their religion. When you put one religion above all others, you remove (in my opinion), a basic founding principle for our country. I cannot be a part of that.

    Hopefully we can get this solved soon so I can join the Gary Johnson in 2016 campaign.

  • #242549

    illbnice
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    And if they don’t call themselves “The Christian Party” and they come out as pro-life…then you will label them as such anyway. You can’t allow one side to blow hard on social issues and not the other.

  • #242559

    Karen
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    They can be blow hard on social issues all they want. No one’s saying they shouldn’t be allowed. Again, just don’t wonder why they keep losing.

  • #242528

    Raven
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    @newmom 69397 wrote:

    It’s not disdain for religion. It’s disdain for a group’s control over the entire GOP, and how that control ends up bringing down their candidate. Many of the people who posted in this thread about taking the religious right out of the GOP identify themselves as Christians.

    What truly surprised me was the outright contempt many of my Christian friends displayed for Romney as a Mormon yesterday. These are people who usually vote Rep, but stated they would not vote for a Mormon, and then wrote many nasty things about Mormons. “Not a true Believer” “Distrustful and a liar” “Not a man of God” “We will all go to Hell” and many other horrible things. It especially surprised me given that so many Christians claim there is a war on their beliefs. Do they not see their part?

    If your Christian friends wrote some of that stuff, then they are not true Christians

  • #242550

    illbnice
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    @karen 69406 wrote:

    They can be blow hard on social issues all they want. No one’s saying they shouldn’t be allowed. Again, just don’t wonder why they keep losing.

    I don’t wonder. It is no surprise to me. This is a representation of our nation. The people have spoken. I am more concerned with “the people” than I am with their representation.

  • #242560

    Karen
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    If you’re trying to imply that anyone who’s not Christian is “morally bankrupt” then that truly is sad.

  • #242523

    newmom
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    @raven 69407 wrote:

    If your Christian friends wrote some of that stuff, then they are not true Christians

    While I would tend to agree with that statement, you will argue until you are blue in the face with them. Some of these people are even extremely conservative Evangelicals who start each day with a Bible verse. They feel they are the true Christians. Church each Sunday, Bible study during the week. They feel that any other religion outside of Christianity (their definition of Christianity) are worshiping false gods and therefore evil and misguided. In the end, all that matters is how they identify themselves and others. I just think the irony of claiming a war on their values, while simultaneously putting down another religion, is comedic.

  • #242524

    newmom
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    @karen 69409 wrote:

    If you’re trying to imply that anyone who’s not Christian is “morally bankrupt” then that truly is sad.

    I agree with you Karen. Many, Christians are the most morally bankrupt people in the world, while others who happen to either follow another religion, or none at all, might have the best morals. Being a Christian is not a sign of being a moral person.

  • #242551

    illbnice
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    @karen 69409 wrote:

    If you’re trying to imply that anyone who’s not Christian is “morally bankrupt” then that truly is sad.

    We are morally bankrupt and it’s because religion is being pushed out of our country. That’s pretty clear, but I’ll play your game. There is a push to do away with and avoid all religion. I didn’t say YOU HAVE to be a Christian or “insert religion of choice here.” There is a push to make it all go away. You don’t have to believe, but why the paranoia if I do? Why the instinct to avoid voting in a decent human being because he believes in God? Lack of morality IS a problem. I think that much is obvious.

  • #242537

    pepsilvr
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    Why do certain social issues have to keep coming up in the first place. If you do not beleive in abortion or think it is right so be it. Don’t have one and don’t support those that do but why work so hard at making it illegal. Why try and take that choice away from others. FUrthermore I don;t know why people are so against abortion and the programs inplace that support the children that will end up in the system becuase abortion is legal. I don;’t care whagt you say there are not enough families out there willing and eligible to adopt all those babies. I don’t buy it for a minute. Where do those kids end up in foster care or on other government assistance which is constantly on the chopping block with the republican parties.

    I can get behind a decent conservative economic platfrom from of the right but I can’t get behind the social platfrom. The party needs to get their nose and opinions out of peoples personal lives. Stop trying to dictiate the few personal liberties we have. If the republicans bring a candidate to the election that is socially moderate and has been the entire time and they will continue to be while in office then they might have a chance with many women, minority, and gay voters. But the party as a whole will not allow it and that is the problem.

  • #242552

    illbnice
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    It’s not like it matters to me–your opinion. (Nor does mine matter to you.) That sounds cold, but the truth is, this is no surprise to believers. It is the way it is supposed to go. Man becomes morally bankrupt. Man has a chance to know Jesus. He choses to or he does not. Jesus comes.

  • #242525

    newmom
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    I don’t think people “avoided voting a decent human being because he believes in God”. Many people didn’t care for the extreme influence the far religious Right had on the candidate and the Rep party. Bush believed in God. So did his father and Reagan before him. I don’t believe in God, yet the only time a candidate’s religious beliefs becomes a problem for me is in the case of the candidate using his religion as reason for his beliefs. If people like me were to be as afraid of Christian candidates as you’d like to believe, we’d never be able to vote for anyone.

  • #242553

    illbnice
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    @newmom 69413 wrote:

    I agree with you Karen. Many, Christians are the most morally bankrupt people in the world, while others who happen to either follow another religion, or none at all, might have the best morals. Being a Christian is not a sign of being a moral person.

    Um, yeah. Whatever gets you through life. Cheers!

    And, yes, I am in a foul mood this morning. The religion paranoia is getting old. So, don’t believe. Don’t infringe on my rights to believe. It’s the same argument you give for your issues. It’s really a dog chasing its tail.

  • #242554

    illbnice
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    And, finally (seriously–I really need to go have a drink or something. HA!) my “morally bankrupt” tangent (which cme5 is a trooper about) is my frustration of the “ME” mentality. People don’t want to be held accountable to anyone–certainly not God. They want THEIR rights and THEIR freedoms and THEIR entitlements. Screw the “rich” and the taxpayers. Screw God and any higher power. ME, ME, ME. When you are not accountable to anyone (even to your fellow citizens, Al), then you have lost your way.

  • #242526

    newmom
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    I’m sitting in a local coffee shop with my kids right now. There are 3 other kid under the age of 5 at another table with their mothers. The man behind me apparently calls himself a Christian yet he is speaking on his cell phone loudly enough for all to hear as be calls Obama and the Left every foul name in the book, cursing the loss of God in everyday life. He is oblivious to the stares he is getting from angry people and won’t just go outside to make his calls. What a good example he is. Clearly he has high morals.

  • #242561

    Karen
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    and…ummm….Obama is a Christian. Unless you are one of those that believe all those mass emails out there that claim he’s a non-citizen Muslim. So how does that work? Like Newmom said, if we didn’t vote for a religious person neither one of them would have won. Which would have been A ok with me.

    I’m sorry, but the paranoia here seems to be coming from you. I’m not afraid of religion. But I am afraid of super right wing religious zealots who harm others in the name of their God. If that makes me paranoid, so be it. I’m just as afraid of the zealots from any religion.

    The original intent of this thread was to try to figure out how the GOP can win next time. I think the way to do that is to try to reduce the influence of those super right wingers. If you disagree, fine.

  • #242513

    doclaguna
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    We lose too many good people because we alienate gays and women who would otherwise like to vote for a fiscal conservative. I have no problem with religion or people being pro-life, but these things cannot be legislated. Just like Bloomberg is not going to be able to legislate away fat people, we cannot legislate away gays, cannot legislate away the need to let people make their own medical decisions.

  • #242514

    doclaguna
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    Obama is whatever is expedient at the time. He was born in Hawaii, but called himself a foreign exchange student when it suited him. He was a muslim when it suited him, he was a Christian.

    That’s all irrelevant now.

  • #242503

    adiffer
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    @illbnice 69423 wrote:

    And, finally (seriously–I really need to go have a drink or something. HA!) my “morally bankrupt” tangent (which cme5 is a trooper about) is my frustration of the “ME” mentality. People don’t want to be held accountable to anyone–certainly not God. They want THEIR rights and THEIR freedoms and THEIR entitlements. Screw the “rich” and the taxpayers. Screw God and any higher power. ME, ME, ME. When you are not accountable to anyone (even to your fellow citizens, Al), then you have lost your way.

    Heh. I AM accountable to my fellow citizens. They are the ONLY agents to whom I feel accountable.

    In post #22 you asked the following…

    Quote:
    Why the instinct to avoid voting in a decent human being because he believes in God?

    I’m letting you know that you answered your own question in #24 with…

    It is the way it is supposed to go. Man becomes morally bankrupt. Man has a chance to know Jesus. He choses to or he does not. Jesus comes.

    Your faith enables fatilism. Many of you are not fatilists, but those of you who are are pretty scary to people like me. I have voted for many people of faith, but I try to avoid the fatilists.

  • #242493

    EGL Admin
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    @newmom 69413 wrote:

    I agree with you Karen. Many, Christians are the most morally bankrupt people in the world, while others who happen to either follow another religion, or none at all, might have the best morals. Being a Christian is not a sign of being a moral person.

    Many? How much is many? Is it more than half? I agree there are plenty of hypocrites and “Sunday” Christians. I think the percentage with “morals” is likely higher in Christians than non Christians.

  • #242494

    EGL Admin
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    @illbnice 69405 wrote:

    And if they don’t call themselves “The Christian Party” and they come out as pro-life…then you will label them as such anyway. You can’t allow one side to blow hard on social issues and not the other.

    There are consequences though. Right now the social issues are hurting republicans in some elections. I asked a friend of mine who is a devout Christian about the social issues and his comments spoke very loudly. He said as a Christian he has to do what God and the bible tells him to do. I asked him yeah but what if that causes people to get elected who ruin the country? Meaning if you send up far right candidates instead of moderates then the democrats win. He said that is fine. God will judge us on our actions and our life here is but a moment in time compared to eternity in heaven. I don’t agree with that myself.

  • #242504

    adiffer
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    Such percentage measurements tend to be subjective. A lot depends on who is doing the measuring and what counts.

    I can trot out a number of studies that show the atheists tend to be quite moral in their actual actions if you want, but I don’t think it is worth it. Whether a person has faith or not, if they grow up in our culture they are likely to adopt certain behaviors from people of Christian faith because there are so many of you. On top of that you’ll find many of the 10 commandments in other faith systems, so I’m not convinced there is a way to meaningfully measure which group is more moral.

  • #242527

    newmom
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    @docs44 69429 wrote:

    Many? How much is many? Is it more than half? I agree there are plenty of hypocrites and “Sunday” Christians. I think the percentage with “morals” is likely higher in Christians than non Christians.

    You know I can’t and won’t give a number. Do you think it’s moral to discriminate against Romney for being Mormon? Yet plenty of “Christians” did. Calling yourself a Christian means nothing. Going to church means nothing. Behaving and living in certain ways is what makes someone moral. Not aligning yourself with a religion.

  • #242544

    SteveB6509
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    I have no problem when someone has a particular belief system (e.g., Christianity) and uses that to support certain causes or actions (e.g., anti-abortion, won’t vote for Romney, anti-gay marriage). I would never deny someone their belief system. However, please don’t complain because you don’t win elections as a result of having those beliefs.

    I also find it very funny how certain people/groups like to define morality because each person has to be responsible to God at the end. However, last I checked, their punishment should be delivered by God, not a feeble human who claims to speak for God.

  • #242495

    EGL Admin
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    “Many” democrats hate the US and hate Christians. “Many” Obama supporters are racist and only voted for him because he is black. Many women are selfish and unpatriotic and think being able to get an abortion is more important than the future of our country.

    Wow this is cool. You can use “many” and say whatever you want.

  • #242505

    adiffer
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    Many = 3 or more 8)

    The problem is that when we say ‘some’ instead SOME people treat it as 1 or 2 and then try to brush it off as inconsequential.

  • #242540

    politicopedro
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    “If you don’t want me to support limits on abortion, don’t ask me to subsidize your vagina.”
    -female commentator on NPR in PA during debate over government forcing Catholic Church to provide contraceptive coverage.

    If you want to quantify the number of zealously anti-religion Democrats, simply play back Antonia Villiaragosa’s deer in headlights stare during the vote to remove any reference to God from the Democratic platform.

    The core party members of BOTH parties are extreme in their positions, and while everybody seems to want to share what they “think” is the reason, very few have offered any facts.

    It is curious however, that the Republicans nominated a moderate, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage Latino who had demonstrated a willingness to compromise, and he lost by more than 12 points… just a little further south a young, conservative, outspoken pro-life pro-traditional marriage white guy is neck-and-neck against a liberal female Democrat in a district that is distinctly more Democrat.

    It seems like most people’s answer is “if they were more like me” rationalizations than any genuine analysis.

  • #242506

    adiffer
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    @politicopedro 69450 wrote:

    It seems like most people’s answer is “if they were more like me” rationalizations than any genuine analysis.

    I think you are on the money here.

  • #242496

    EGL Admin
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    Someone mentioned paranoia earlier. I think in the context of this thread it is the Dems who are paranoid about Christians. Not all Christians are anti sbortion or gay marriage. Possibly more than half are. Some of you are voting out of fear of something that will likely never happen and even less likely to affect you. It’s like wondering what’s for dinner when your house is on fire.

  • #242497

    EGL Admin
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    @adiffer 69453 wrote:

    I think you are on the money here.

    That has some truth. Just like there is truth in thinking the party is losing touch. The vote was very close in some battleground states. The social issues may have been the difference.

  • #242507

    adiffer
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    Maybe. The instant ‘analysis’ I’ve seen today strikes me as mostly crap. I’m seeing a lot of stuff that describes what people HOPE happened. I suppose that is useful to know.

    I know from experience that many of my Christian friends are social liberals with respect to many issues and I mean that in the old sense of liberalism. They argue for letting people be. When they do recognize sin they usually point out that God made it clear that punishment is His to deliver. I have no trouble voting for and working with them. I also have no trouble recognizing that many other people argue that their faith isn’t scripturally sound, but it shouldn’t take much guessing to figuring out who I’ll defend.

    The problem with arguing that certain things won’t happen is that they might. I used to make similar arguments about ballot initiatives and have since learned to keep my trap shut. If someone with an ironing board and a clipboard wanted my signature for a proposed initiative I used to sign if I thought it was decent enough to put it before people so they could choose for themselves. I have learned my lesson and tend to glare at the people with clipboards now. There are certain things that have been on our ballot that I really wish had never made it. Arguing that certain politicians won’t ever change certain laws is, I think, like signing ballot initiatives without deep thought first. Some things should not come up for a majority vote. Ever.

  • #242498

    EGL Admin
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    Anything is possible. It’s possible Obama is secretly a hard line Muslim wanting to turn the US into a Muslim country. I don’t buy any of the conspiracy theories about him.

  • #242555

    omgnate
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    No question the GOP needs to widen their tent…The how is the question. I would think they need to do a complete analysis of what America looks like today and in the future. Yes there are social issues to explore. I don’t think that all 60 million citizens who voted for the President are all gimme pigs…The issues are deeper than free stuff, but what are they, and how can the GOP assure the vast majority of a diverse population feels that they have their interests at heart. Then how to communicate that in a way it is understood and believed. I consider myself a fairly conservative person, been working since I was 15.. Solidly middle class even in retirement we want nor need anything. The crash in 2008 did nothing to change our lifestyle, our home is not under water, we did have a liitle anxiety about our investments, but they are up and past what they were when the economy tanked. But, as I was taught, never forget where you come from when you rise above your beginnings. So, social issues are a concern for us.

  • #242520

    LC
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    I think the above is a fair statement. It’s not that we don’t welcome the gays and minorities; it’s that we haven’t shown them a good reason or set of principles that would make them flip. If we continue to depend on the white vote, which we do de facto, candidly, we’re going to continue our slow shrink. There are plenty of fiscally conservative minorities and gays that would give us an ear if we had a pitch that resonates. I think we have the right ideas, just the wrong approach. This has been a big topic over that past 48 hours and it’s about time. I’ve been as guilty as anyone, just wondering why they don’t get that self-reliance is better than government reliance. Finally figured it out that it’s all in the presentation and we don’t have to change our principles but we need to modify priorities and suppress the social issues on the platform.

    The good news is that a growing percentage of our new leaders are young minorities. It’s going to be largely up to them to lead the resetting and updating of our image and platform.

  • #242529

    cme5
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    I don’t think it’s the social issues that chase non-whites away. As Prop 8 has shown in CA, non-whites will embrace social issues. Gay marriage, and abortion issues resonate well in the Catholic Latino community. Other non-Christian whites will also embrace these issues. To me, the social issues turn away liberal white voters, who probably won’t vote Republican anyway.

    IMO, the biggest issue facing Republicans is defining the role of government. Middle and lower class non-whites see a role for government. One that could even out the playing field and provide opportunity. Republicans have not been able to convince this group that lowering taxes and less government is the best way to provide opportunity. Maybe their strategy is best. They just haven’t been able to articulate why and how it is.

    Frankly, I think the constant rhetoric of “government is bad” hurts Republicans. I think they need to better define a role of less government, but at least acknowledge it has a role, and then define it. The message is really poor.

  • #242499

    EGL Admin
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    What is a gimme pig?

    I don’t think we can just rely on the younger leaders to bring in more voters unless the party itself changes official direction. That won’t happen anytime soon. By the time it does it will may be too late.

  • #242500

    EGL Admin
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    I think Cme5 has a point. I also think that those separate issues like gay marriage may resonate well with a cross section of minorities but it doesn’t transfer to candidates.

  • #242534

    sea
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    What exactly does “even out the playing field” mean and how, exactly, is that done? What is currently uneven about opportunities?

  • #242556

    omgnate
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    Gimmie Pig=Folks who want free stuff and not work for it, they have a sense of entitlement.

  • #242530

    cme5
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    What exactly does “even out the playing field” mean?

    Meaning those not born into wealth have the opportunity to become wealthy. In the 100 yard dash of economics, some are born at the starting gate, others in the middle, and others already at the finish line.

    Maybe the Republlican position of less taxes and less government is the way to even out the playing field. If it is, they have not been able to articulate how.

  • #242535

    sea
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    So, those who are born at the starting gate are supposed to do what, work? We were not born wealthy, however through a lot of hard work and determination, Obama now considers us wealthy. Evening out the playing field means that even though we made our own way, we should pay for others so they don’t have to?

  • #242531

    cme5
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    IMO, and my opinion only, it is evened out by providing the poor with a good education, good housing, healthy food and medical care.

  • #242515

    doclaguna
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    Cme is an example of how Obama got reelected. Works for the government, thinks more government can solve all problems. It’s just a different viewpoint that I don’t agree with. We’ve been giving people free education, housing and food for generations with no success. It’s obviously a failed policy, because in the end, no one is going to work when they can get the same things for free sitting on their ass.

  • #242516

    doclaguna
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    CME, just out of curiosity, should fast runners have to carry weights on their ankles, and tall basketball players have their legs cut off?

  • #242536

    sea
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    So I’m responsible to provide this to the “poor”, at a much higher rate than everyone else? This is considered “fair”? I started out “poor” too. We all have the same opportunities, it’s up to us to make them. I was not raised with the concept that I’m entitled to anything, I must work for it. I must go out and find my own opportunities, not sit back and wait for the government to provide it for me. Therefore, I have a hard time feeling responsible to be the provider for all.

    I am extremely selective about my charitable giving. Animal organizations and Special Olympics are my favorites. As a matter of fact, my other half is in Indianapolis today with his involvement in the Special Olympics. I tend to give to those who don’t expect and demand it. Unfortunately, our current administration expects, demands, and TAKES it.

  • #242532

    cme5
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    No DL, but, in pro sports they do even out the playing field by instituting salary caps and revenue sharing, the ultimate redistribution of wealth.

    And I am finished. I am providing no value judgement on what I believe or what you believe. My point was just that the Republicans cannot articluate why their economic plans are better for poor and middle class non-whites. Maybe it is. They just need to say why and how.

  • #242517

    doclaguna
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    @cme5 69483 wrote:

    No DL, but, in pro sports they do even out the playing field by instituting salary caps and revenue sharing, the ultimate redistribution of wealth.

    And I am finished. I am providing no value judgement on what I believe or what you believe. My point was just that the Republicans cannot articluate why their economic plans are better for poor and middle class non-whites. Maybe it is. They just need to say why and how.

    Well, you can see that the gap between black and white unemployment has worsened during the Obama administration, but no matter what facts we use, he never gets any blame.

  • #242508

    adiffer
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    @cme5 69479 wrote:

    IMO, and my opinion only, it is evened out by providing the poor with a good education, good housing, healthy food and medical care.

    Oof. You want me to treat them like I do my retired mother-in-law and give them a roof to live under, food subsidy, and more? I can find it in my heart to do that for family, but it is quite a drain on the wallet. I wind up having to treat her like a cash supply (social security) in order to ensure the other things get paid and that’s not a good way to view family members. When family members contribute to the budget, it should be a volutary, joyful thing to do. Instead it is a thing of gratitude and worry.

    Providing for others puts them in a terrible long-term moral position. Even our most angelic gestures require of them a sense of gratitude for our tolerance of their weakness. We have to do it at times in order to ensure they survive, but we shouldn’t WANT to do it.

    From a purely fiscal perspective, we can’t provide for all that many. We’ve known for centuries that they CAN provide for themselves, though, as long as no one prevents them. There will always be a few exceptions of course, but the last 200 years of history shows that poor people can provide… and have.

    From a purely moral perspective, we can’t afford to put people in a position where they owe us gratitude for their lives. That encourages people to abandon personal responsibility and make tools of themselves for the purposes of those who help them.

    Every liberal should know these lessons. They are part of our history.

  • #242509

    adiffer
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    @sea 69472 wrote:

    What exactly does “even out the playing field” mean and how, exactly, is that done? What is currently uneven about opportunities?

    The primary unevenness has to do with education. Parents can’t shop around much unless they can afford to subsidize the education of other kids and pay separately for the private education of their own kids. State provided education comes with state required rules. If you live on this city block you go to this city school that derives parts of its budget from property taxes in this certain area. You have no effective say in who teaches your kids (that’s all provided for) and little say in what they are taught.

    Part of the segregation of neighborhoods occurs because of the dumb way we do state education. If I have enough money I can move to a better neighborhood. That might seem like a selfish choice and for a single person there is a decent arguement for it. For a parent with school age kids, though, it isn’t selfish. Where your kids get educated strongly influences what they learn and their future chances of success, so I have an excellent biological motivation to move, demand raises at work, and so on. The biological motivation is inherent in all of us, but the state constraints on education shape how that motivation turns into actions and policy.

    One big thing we could do to ‘level the playing field’ would be to change the rules for state provided education. I would prefer to end it and simply recognize that the taxes we collect for it now are a form of wealth redistribution. We could just hand out checks and tell people its for their kids education and it would be more honest.

  • #242533

    cme5
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    Holy mackeral…Uh OK. Thanks for telling me what every liberal should know. I must have missed that special meeting and didn’t get the memo on the history lesson.

  • #242510

    adiffer
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    I’m half smiling. 8)

    Most of us DON’T know our history. That’s part of why Progressivism is confused with Liberalism. Both groups have done great things together, but sometimes the old liberals have to point out our limits. It is too easy to turn ‘we should’ into ‘we must’ and finally ‘we can’ when we actually can’t.

    I’m with you on evening out things that produce illiberal results, but I’m wary of providing for people. It changes how they think in critical ways. It does harm.

  • #242518

    doclaguna
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    There are liberals and then there are statists, I think CME the latter.

  • #242541

    politicopedro
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    @cme5 69468 wrote:

    I don’t think it’s the social issues that chase non-whites away. As Prop 8 has shown in CA, non-whites will embrace social issues. Gay marriage, and abortion issues resonate well in the Catholic Latino community. Other non-Christian whites will also embrace these issues. To me, the social issues turn away liberal white voters, who probably won’t vote Republican anyway.

    IMO, the biggest issue facing Republicans is defining the role of government. Middle and lower class non-whites see a role for government. One that could even out the playing field and provide opportunity. Republicans have not been able to convince this group that lowering taxes and less government is the best way to provide opportunity. Maybe their strategy is best. They just haven’t been able to articulate why and how it is.

    Frankly, I think the constant rhetoric of “government is bad” hurts Republicans. I think they need to better define a role of less government, but at least acknowledge it has a role, and then define it. The message is really poor.

    Leave to the liberal to provide the most accurate assessment.

    We (as in the GOP) need to talk in terms of how our ideas and policies will make real people’s lives better.

    Last year at the RLC (Republican Leadership Committee, a moderate GOP group) I debated a conservative who basically said we need to hammer values and a moderate who said we need to embrace moderate/liberal social policies. I said both were right and both were wrong. We won’t beat Democrats by becoming them.

    Just saying “bailouts are bad” or chanting “solyndra” isn’t enough. We need to show that the reason these policies are bad is because they reinforce bad decision by corporate officers – and ultimately hurt workers, consumers and taxpayers.

    Republicans do have emulate the Democrats in one respect – organization and ground operation. Democrats have us beat there by a magnitude. More than $1 Billion dollars, 200,000 field operatives (voter ID, volunteer recruitment, community building) built over 4 years (actually longer since they started before ’08) is hard to overcome in just a few months. In CA, compare a professional Democrat party and with the CRP still trying to operate as a volunteer organization, and we are at a serious infrastructure disadvantage.

  • #242511

    adiffer
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    I don’t envy you with respect to some of the meetings you’ll face in the next year. Good luck with them.

    I was watching a few conservatives speak on CSPAN yesterday. They were spitting mad. Literally. Spitting and frothing at the microphone. There message sums up as ‘We told you so. Do things our way now or we will take our ball and go home.’ I couldn’t help but feel a bit cheered when one of them laid out the ultimatum.

    Becoming your opponent isn’t a good option. Recognizing that your opponent is actually a collection of factions that can be divided by adapting a bit to the more tolerable ones isn’t so bad. You know this, though. 8)

    Seriously… good luck with it.

  • #242501

    EGL Admin
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    Some conservatives are saying Romney lost because he didn’t motivate the far right enough to get out and vote. If that is true it’s a lame excuse and really no different than someone voting for Obama simply because of abortion. If someone is that short sighted and stupid to not bother voting because they think a moderate is just as bad as a liberal then we really are screwed.

  • #242521

    LC
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    The tea party coalition is spitting mad and is threatening to boycott any conventional GOP legislation, as if that’s going to accomplish anything for the party. Although they served an important purpose, those people and Cantor’s group have become a giant PITA

  • #242502

    EGL Admin
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    Exactly. I was never a fan of the tea party. I think they are taking the party in the wrong direction and they are the ones who hope Obama fails even more so things get worse and then maybe people will switch. I’m not sure things getting worse scenario will do it. It may just push more people into the Democratic Party base.

  • #242512

    adiffer
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    It’s not as easy to unify Democrats as Republicans, but making things worse with respect to the political dialog might do it.

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